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Q: What's your opinion on China introducing traditional medicine abroad?
I've read in the paper recently in the China Daily News that China wants to introduce traditional medicine abroad. With the exception they need to fix a few details. Has anybody ever taken traditional chinese medicine before? And if you have what's your opinion on China introducing traditional medicine abroad? Does it really work? Is it safe?
12 years 21 weeks ago in Health & Safety - China
Actually it depends on their marketing. It could easily be sold to the upper class as a natural health alternative that has survived the ages and sold at extreme cost.
As far as actually helping the rest of the world, I'd say no. It cannot provide its "health" benifit to those like it does for the people that were raised to believe in its placebo effect.
DaBen is obviously not fully acquainted with the actual effects of TCM - and thus believes it is complete hogwash!
I, OTOH, am a trained practioner of it, and have seen its effects first hand, as well as having provided some of those effects. Some of those effects have been, according to western medicine, "miraculous"! (Western medicine has no effective treatments for stroke victims or paralysis... I've seen feeling restored within minutes of a treatment).
TCM in China, currently, is somewhat different to what went to the west many years ago. I don't think there's much left that the west is going to find particularly exciting to hear that China is NOW going to take it abroad. In fact, most of the best and most talented TCM practitioners have lived abroad for a few decades. We tend to have better schools, and better teaching for it than China does (much like most fields of education in this country). We also have better equipment, and better remedies than here...
DaBen:
In my defense... I see TCM in three different levels. There is the perfected/ modernized version that you work, there is what the average elderly person on the street knows it as, and there is what China shows/ treats the average laowai. This being an expat site, my answer was towards the latter, but I'd still use it to against the second group as well. If my understanding is still wrong after this explanation... please let me know, because I'd love to further my understanding in all things.
Shining_brow:
Ah, thanks for the clarification DaBen... in that case, yeah, I'll agree with you :) Although, I'd really rather not... cos I'd like to think that China has retained some of its knowledge, and some very old practitioners are handing down good secrets that aren't available in the west. (not holding my breath, though)
MrTibbles:
Again, anytime anyone ever speaks of these "miracles" and "amazing effects" they can NEVER OFFER ANY PROOF other than "I believe in magic, so I say it works! I've see it with my own eyes!" I can cast spells like Harry Potter, really I've seen it with my own eyes! As soon as CLINICAL SCIENCE starts producing 100% observable and repeatable experiments with twigs and leaves, I'll take the actual medical knowledge every day of the week.
I agree woith Shining_Brow. Its been in the US for decades already. I was getting accupunture and herbal treatments, moxibustion etc. etc. in the US back in the late 90's. Lots of Chinese doctors have moved (immigrated to) the US and hung out a shingle!
It works better for some things than western medicine, and is ineffectual for other conditions. It all depends upon the condition.
GuilinRaf:
Guasha is definitely a scam!!!!! Not only was I still sick, but I was also in pain for days afterwards!
As to the others, I am willing to explore before passing judgement.
I think stoners and generally dim people will buy into it. Then reality and science will sink in. It says alot the the people we consider to be the biggest flakes in our society will believe in something so many Chinese believe in.
Shining_brow:
let me quote my above post: "(Western medicine has no effective treatments for stroke victims or paralysis... I've seen feeling restored within minutes of a treatment)." So...????? Obviously, I'm either a stoner (which I'm not), or I'm dim... (which I'm not...). Reality is - it has effects! Maybe not for everyone in every situation, but it's NOT SUPPOSED TO! Science will eventualy catch up... even if it means a complete change of perspective - from BOTH fields!
they have homeopathy, faith healing, chiropractors one more wont make a difference
It's nothing new in the US. Obviously, certain natural herbs and remedies will work for some illnesses. Others are completely useless. Acupuncture works for my mother. She has fibromyalgia, and it gives her temporary relief. She decided to go with acupuncture when my dad's job changed medical insurances, and the new one didn't cover the medication she was using. It would have meant going through the process of finding another medication that worked, which would have taken weeks, and she decided to try the more natural route instead. It doesn't work for everyone though, and she still has painful days, but I think she is happy with the result.
Introducing...thats a little late. My mom has been drinking/soaking in/applying some crazy teas and herbs (mysterious roots and trees) since I was little. Its been over 30 years. What exactly are they "introducing abroad"?
kchur:
Yeah, there was a Chinese medicine centre in the town near the one a grew up in - pop. 8000 - even back in the early 90s
Yes I was dieing of a deadly disease .After 3 treatments of mashed tiger penis and a dose smashed monkey balls I feel chipper!
Chinese medicine won't ever go to market abroad unless they have very specific ingredient lists to be actually used as medicines. The TCM "medicine" makers are loath to list their secret recipes for basically bad tasting tea because others will steal it.
Then, other countries actually have things like the US FDA which will monitor, test, and run trials to make sure there is actually the ingredients they claim and to test effectiveness.
As faux-herbal remedies and supplements, sure some of this stuff will go through and in fact a lot of it already is.
And anyone that wants to claim these "secret magical effects" of bogus TCM stuff... Just plese stop. Do you really think that say Pfizer hasn't already obtained samples of any medicines like this and ran it through a centrafuge to break it down into core components? I'm pretty sure that botanists have classified most of the plants in these regions and I doubt there is a secret farm that grows secret-yet-undiscovered-by-western-medicine plants. So what? Boiling some herbs in the right combination creates "medicine" that's magically can cure whatever-ails-you? And this has been "kept secret" for thousands of years? Pure hokum.
It's alchemy based on almost no knowledge of anatomy and physiology where the main ideas are things like "This looks like a spleen! Must be good for the spleen!" and "Your liver is connected to wood elements, so tree bark is good for the liver!" Sure, after a few thousand years or trial and error, you're bound to discover somthing (like gunpowder - Chinese alchemists trying to make a longevity potion for the emperor), but I find it highly dubious that there is a magical grimmoire full of secret recipes hidden from the west.
Shining_brow:
So (just pretending for a minute that you weren't making a facetious and wildly unscientific attack on herbal medicine, in a grossly fallacious way - the logic holes are ENORMOUS!), you are saying that a) all medicines require ONE and ONLY ONE active ingredient, working in isolation, to have an effect, and consequently that b) combining different extracts from various sources has no effect whatsoever... And, of course, western medicine and science is the ONLY source of truth and knowledge in this world? (I'm not saying that every claim made has ANY legitimacy to it, just that it's too quick and easy to throw out babies with bathwater...)
MrTibbles:
Oh boy. Combining chemicals can produce new chemicals, of course. What I'm saying is that there is not this vast knowledge of secret medicinal data hidden from the west that will suddenly be released and that TCM hasn't had a cure for cancer being kept secret until the right time. Most TCM is utter BS and the principles it is based on is very similar to medieval alchemy.
Shining_brow:
But that's NOT how you phrased it! You're saying (in this one, and above) that ALL TCM is based on ridiculous fantasy, and everyone has been conned by it ..(you remember that 'Harry Potter' spell-casting line??? That's just plain RUDE!!!! If you want an intelligent discussion on the subject, then you'll need to be more respectful of people's experiences, training, and even research! The "secret medicinal data hidden from the west" idea is, in my mind, a fair call! No, there's not! As, as sort of indicated, there's a lot of CRAP associated with it - but that's not to say that all TCM is complete rubbish - which your post clearly indicates! Your other points, at the beginning, are - of course - spot on! :) Even in Australia, England, Europe they are required to list ingredients and all - so Chinese stuff isn't likely to satisfy too many government bodies anywhere outside of China...
MrTibbles:
Most of it is superstition, I dare say a large majority. Are there a few things that work? Maybe sort of, but without clinical trials and following scientific principles and guidelines, then yes, I feel 100% comfortable that it's all snake oil and cons that people have bought into. The placebo effect can be very powerful. What if you happen to be allergic to one of the magic ingredients? There is no way to tell because you can't be sure what's in it. Does Sun Bear bile work the same for everyone when mixed with mugwort and tea? Who knows? It's all based on "personal diagnosis" by a TCM practitioner. There is no examination of past medical history, allergies, or anything else, it's all about balancing yin and yang, the flow of magic, I mean Qi, and regulating heat and cold (non-existent) with food. Again, sure some things have been found out, like Ephedra helps people breathe, but it sure the hell isn't because it's a "wood element associated with air and an azure dragon of the sky". Imagine if western doctors still tried to bleed illnesses out of people like they did 500 years ago. That was "traditional western medicine"... And "doctors" of the time swore by it because "they saw it work with their own eyes". This stuff is NO DIFFERENT but because of "face" it can never ever be wrong - it must be respected because the ancient Chinese were infallible or something until the "discovery" of IV antibiotics which are now prescribed for EVERYTHING here. Broken bone? IV antibiotics! Flu? IV ANTIBIOTICS! And you're asking me to take this seriously?
Shining_brow:
No Mr. T... while it's true that here in China there will always be the 'face' issue, there are trials in other parts of the world, and it's there that we'll see what comes of it. The major problem of these 'clinical trials' is that they based on the FALLACY that all people are the same! Sure, the vast majority of humans work exactly the same - BUT NOT ALL! TCM takes into account the WHOLE person.. not just the biochemical, not just the 'physical'. Obviously, you see the world through those sort of glasses - if science hasn't proven it conclusively, then it doesn't exist - THEN take it a step further and say that it CAN'T exist (something that pure science would never acknowledge! Lack of evidence is NOT proof against, remember!). So, when I treat a patient who has a western diagnosis of XYZ, I look at a lot more than just typical western S&S... and I deliver my treatment for it according to MY diagnosis - not western. 2 people have a headache - western medicine gives aspirin. TCM will give those same 2 patients 2 completely different treatments... Until western clinical medicine starts to looking more 'scientifically' at the how's and why's of TCM, you won't see the sort of results to research you need to 'prove' something. Just like the headache, the experiments need to be directed at 'people', not 'conditions'. To completely prove (or disprove) TCM, you need to have subjects who have the exact same S&S (from a TCM perspective), and treat them based on that - then watch the results. You can't just willy-nilly dump a whole pile of needles into 1000 subjects, and hope for the same results for all of them - that's just be ridiculous!!! I suggest (respectfully and tactfully, at that!),. that BOTH systems will do through some major paradigm shifts over the next few decades - both current western science and TCM. TCM needs an overhaul (and a stack of research by 'open-minded' researchers), because a lot of it is junk! And western medicine needs to be willing to accept other possibilities than merely "the physical body is the only thing that exists"... There are some things that can be done easily - and scientifically... such as, checking heart rate changes for needling some sets of 'sedation' points, compared to needling 'stimulating' points. BTW, do you completely discount the documented cases of acupuncture anasthetics during surgery???
I think they underestimate the laughter this will generate.
TCM is available abroad, my lil chinaman. And it isn't a new introduction as it's been available for at least as old as you are.
I can tell you Chinese medicine are totally made up of natural plants and really work
