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Q: Where did you guys go?
Some regulars have stopped posting. Any reason why?
Why do people leave this site?
Poor engagement by Admin is probably one reason.
About 6 months ago the then Admin asked what the site users would like to see.
most replied citing things like highlighting/shortcutting useful posts containing visa info, dealing with difficult employers etc.
The Admin at the time totally ignored all these suggestions and did not acknowledge, let alone engage with forum users, especially when it comes to obvious they are 'token' (read fake) accounts that ask purposely provocative questions and then exhibit 'butt hurt' when outed.
A user above, The-Final-Say posted a disturbing account of Admins lack of engagement, and i know Admin has been online since and failed to be seen to respond.
You - Admin - exhibit Chinese characteristics when dealing with mostly non-Chinese users and I for one don't appreciate the passive aggressive treatment most of us have to deal with on a daily basis.
Show some b***s because you are not dealing with passive Chinese here, but people who expect questions to be answered in an open way.
The 'when in Rome' BS does not apply.
I am willing to help as much as the next poster, but when a user is outed as a fake by further probing of their question (this happens when they 'get offended' when asked for clarity or caught out in an obvious flaky post), their butt hurt is nothing but impotent whining, whereas the genuine receive (hopefully) useful suggestions.
So Admin, you are also responsible for the state of this site.
Your lack of open engagement is killing it.
Harmonisation will also kill it.
ScotsAlan:
I tried to engage. But I was shot down in flames from day zero. I tried to figure it out. I tried to mend, I tried to be fair, but no matter what I done, or did not do, it was not good enough. I ended up not wanting to look at this site any more. What attack will I have today. I went offline for weeks. I found myself not able to look at ecc unless I had loads of beer onboard. And all of this on a website with everyone mad by definition (living in china after all), and in a position where one wrong decision could result in a cup of tea at the local police station... Wow. Coin was spot on. I should have kept my mouth shut. The problem was not the user mods, the problem was that I was a user mod. Left wing and all that. But I believe in honesty. Being a mod conflicted with that. I have been in a bad place over the past few months. It really messed my head up. Not because of me going power mad. But because my sense of fairness was subjected to ridicule. And with little support from... I wish ECC all the best. Its a fantastic forum. The best in China. But its not for me anymore. Sorry Grumpy Cat.
sorrel:
In fairness Scots, the whole 'use-mod' concept was a (if you excuse my language) half-baked, cheap assed and ill-advised way to fob off the responsibility of a job that should be done by someone impartial and for a fee, and I appreciate that it was very unfair to ask a poster with their own opinions and experiences to moderate everything while participating on their own behalf.
It was doomed to failure regardless of who was nominated as whoever they were would have been harassed by other users, as impartiality implies not getting caught in the day-to-day banter.
I would certainly not have seen the offer of this position as an 'honour'.
Anyone who has been on this forum for a while as i have been has witnessed how far things have gone in terms of allowing fakes and wumao's continued butt-hurt whining, and how this affects more sincere and helpful posters.
If you are going to set up a site with the purpose to invite participation, and offer incentives, be they jackets or torches or whatever, at least have the integrity to follow through and not stick your head in the sand at the first sign of a challenge.
At home any business i know, and i know quite a few owners, engages with customers every day through their site, so all customes can see.
This is basic business practice.
Yes, i know, this is China.
ScotsAlan:
I see your point sorrel. And your point is totally justified in that I answered this question as a reply to your answer rather than start a fresh answer. I am not looking for excuses, or allies. I just want somewhere to vent. I wont vent here anymore. But I will stay on as a poster. Any visa info I know of I will post. I posted a new question tonight. I will vent on wechat from now.
expatlife26:
yeah the token accounts like Delphine, nicebrice and hal are bothersome. And I posted about it and a couple times my comments were deleted which doesn't exactly support them being organic posters or even run of the mill local trolls. Like for example Howwhywhen i think is a local troll as opposed to a random question mill account.
And I dont even have a problem with random question accounts to get discussions going. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. It's the mean-spirited anti-foreigner/western questions that are so creepy. Like the site itself is being disrespectful to the community because it generates traffic to insult us and get us defensive.
I said in my own post an expat forum cannot be a safe space for the most easily offended person who turns up. For example while this forum isn't half as toxic and racist as some of the other ones out there, this is still not a good place for a thin skinned local. Just as i'm sure some forums for Chinese living in the US wouldn't be for tons of thin-skinned americans. We all post here at our own risk in terms of our sensibilities and that MUST include every user that turns up here. This is a internet forum, nobody is required to be here and I think in trying to make this inoffensive for those it doesn't cater to it's driven away the people it does cater to.
Shining_brow:
I'm genuinely curious - do you both (Sorrel & ExpatL) think that wumaos and ECC accounts should be banned?
In reference to some of the obvious stuff - it's no worse than the anti-China stuff that gets posted regularly... so I'd see it as a double-standard. We can drop shit on China, but they can't drop shit on us. If it's really pathetic, I ignore it. If it's another "China is better than the US of A' I'll ignore it.
Recently, we've had a lot less overtly nationalistic Chinese crap (with one exception.. who called himself a Czech!!)
I don't think those posters bring the forum down in any way. They are too few, and the responses too many to do that. And too many other posts to focus on.
The User-mod job was politicised when it shouldn't have been (well, actually, it wasn't - it was just attacked, and sometimes politics was used as an excuse).. It was also made extremely personal.. As Sorrel said - it wouldn't have really mattered who it was - they were going to come under fire by someone (and, in fact, they WERE under fire - well before Scots came out... showing just how irrelevant who the person was!)
TIC... divide and self-destruct.
expatlife26:
Hey Shining,
I wouldn't say it is a double standard to oppose anti-expat/western sentiment on a forum where the topic is answers to questions for expats in China.
What if this was a fan forum for Game of Thrones or something. You can have members saying "that episode sucked" or "Shows going downhill" or whatever because they are speaking as fans in a fan forum. But somebody shows up saying "Game of thrones is gay ur all fags" "Xena warrior princess kicks game of thrones ass!' etc. then yeah you can ban that person.
This isn't like a public institution of justice that has a duty to weigh and balance and give a platform for all sides to voice their opinions equally. Someone who explicitly hates expats and/or the countries we come from doesn't belong here.
And flip it around...without looking i'm sure there are tons of english language forums for recent muslim immigrants to the US. Forums full of mostly reasonable people trying their best and asking questions like "Wheres the best halal shop in east pittsburgh?" or whatever. If I hate muslim immigrants and go and ask questions like "Are muslims really all misogynist trash?" "Are we ruining America?" then the good people of that forum have every right to call for my banning. Even if they are being critical of americans, calling US girls whores or saying american guys are pussies. It reflects more on me that I go looking for trouble online than that a bunch of frustrated losers blame their problems on america.
So no, it's not a double standard. It's like saying on a Yankees forum that Red Sox fans who hate the yankees have as much right to post as anybody. This is not a public institution.
Shining_brow:
I would say it's a double standard if you're calling for someone to be banned for such posts! (depending on the phrasing...)
I noticed a couple of years ago that threads like "Why are Chinese all so stupid?" were 'harmonised'. Should they have stayed? If it was "Why are Americans all so stupid?", should that stay or go? If the first stays, but the second goes, then yes - it's a double-standard (even if you can find ways that ''justify' it!)
JonathonSteele was soundly hounded out (and there was some pretty toxic stuff on his). Should it have stayed?
Same question really comes down to trolling - posting just to get negative responses (which is why I found it odd that the CTFU guys were consistently banned... other than blatant advertising, there was nothing inherently wrong with their posts!)
IMHO - "GoT is for fags - you're all gay" should be deleted (maybe banned after a few). "Zena rocks, GoT sucks" should stay... and let the downvotes overflow... (yes, I am a bit PC
expatlife26:
Shining, do you really think the comment that "got is for fags" should be deleted? It's an example of an outrageously shitty, hostile comment that a troll would make to disrupt a forum which should result in a ban.
it's not what I think or feel in any way shape or form, it's a discussion of the kind of person who doesn't belong on a forum and the kinds of things they say to get members riled up which includes using foul offensive language.
expatlife26:
you know what? I misunderstood you shining. You were also talking about banning in the context of the fan forum based on offensive language, I thought you were saying deleting my example here, shouldn't post before my 2nd cup of coffee.
I get it. And I agree with you, ignore what I said above. Have a good one.
Could it be a coincidence that they all got busy/occupied at same time..
This is the way of it. It happens on many forums.
The Harmonious PC Clique erroneously gets it into their heads that the more robust users are a problem so mount a campaign for free hugs, pure thought and generic opinions believing it will stimulate the site.
As you/we have seen the peace and love moderation campaign did just the opposite. Of course the passionate "'don't hurt my feelings' members" complained and reported their blessed little hearts out and they and they alone effectively killed the traffic on this site.
Naturally the Harmonious PC Clique will blame those who freely express their opinions. That is what they do and why myself and others hold them in such contempt. Zealots such as this always believe they are right and just even in the face of evidence.
Should you care to notice, as I did and a few users also mentioned to me, the threads with arguments and shit-fights are the ones that garner the largest number of clicks and comments. Duh!
On the other hand the more pedestrian topics may get 3 or 4 answers and one or two comments. Please check for yourself.
The long and short of it is this: Sure both regulars and vistors come to have questions answered, that's a given. And even the most acerbic users will more often than not provide helpful answers. But the reality is that people visit forums to rant, bitch and argue....and to watch the fireworks. Like it or not, this is the way it is.
I belong to other expat websites, as we all do and have observed exactly the same thing occur before. Now, today, those websites are all but dead thanks to the Harmonious PC Clique whinging vehemently to the administrators.
As an example, check out the stupendous amount of traffic, the number of comments on blogs and forum topics here: www.zsrenn.com
At one time this was a really lively, funny, irreverent.....until the Harmonious PC Clique began tormenting the admin. Today, ALL comments, forum and blog entries must be approved by Joseph Stalin (admin).
It is dead and the revenue from the few sponsors remaining (the names of those who pulled sponsorship remain to maintain the illusion) cannot possibly even pay for the basic cost of keeping it online. I expect it to vanish when the hosting contract expires.
One the third hand(?), this website like others is a click-revenue based business. It is not a feel-good charity. Silencing users and deleting comments has made me reluctant to post anything without proof-reading to make sure that even the most obscure reference can't be misinterpreted and possibly offend a single potential reader.
If as "Sainthood" proposes and makes reports about with comic frequency and T&Cs are followed to the rule then you may as well just shut the doors. Banal topics with no comments doesn't make money. Please tell me if I'm wrong, but the evidence shows something different.
I was maligned this week for doing exactly what I stated I do on this website, which is ironic considering that I scored 20 bonus points for this comment on Scotty's thread about why you post here. It read, "Help those in genuine need and take the piss out of those who deserve it". Thanks for the points Admin and the upvotes users.
So you see, admin has been the victim of taking advice from those least qualified to give it.
You reap what you sow.
royceH:
Whoa... good one Wolfy. I didn't see the thread to which you refer. At least I don't think I did. Might have a surf later on.
But I must correct one statement you've made... I've never seen another ex-pat forum.
I'm mono, due to indifference.
Now that the footy season is upon us I waste most of my time thinking about that.
iWolf:
Queenslander, Queenslander!!!
I've even stooped to downloading the highbrow Monday Night with Matty Johns because I miss it so much. My guilty secret is that my (cantonese) wife and I enjoy it
Some of my comments on that thread were harmonised after admin gave some oil to the squeeky crybaby wheel.
Kadicha:
hi Nice to see some other Ozzie's here . do you know a way I can see State of Origin here? I'm in Jaingsu in a small city ?
iWolf:
Gday Kadicha. Welcome aboard. Traditionally the arrival of the kadicha man doesn't bode well for some people. Kadicha man knows the truth and brings retribution.
a lot.The-Final-Say:
I don't know you and you don't know me but I support your every word, 100%. I would like to think that admins, moderators, managers or whatever should focus their efforts on technical issues, legal issues, and creating topics that create website traffic. A long time ago I was an administrator, then manager of a website much like this one, except we had a live chat box for members in the city to banter in and make friends and meet up. It brought the expat community together and helped improve relations with locals too. Then a few members ruined it. We had a few people who went too far and then those as you say, The Harmony PC Clique or whatever caused the website to go Utopian and then our traffic went from 10s of thousands of views per week to luck to have a reply by anyone in a month. The website died a slow death only because it was renewed right before the establishment's participation ended. This website still has people posting articles, which is nice. Hopefully someone will heed your advice and make the correct actions. That and also administrators could do with a tad more customer service oriented policies meant to open up communication with those who have real inquiries, not just worrying about someone's loud opinions.
royceH:
Actually I was talking about the football. Like, the real football.
iWolf:
Real football?? What is this of which you speak? Aussie Rules, soccer??
Rugby (either one) is 'real football' isn't it?
I won't hold it against you mate.
royceH:
Nah... Aussie Rules is real football. I do concede soccer has an argument that it's real football and I won't argue it. But, for mine, Aussie Rules is it.
The rugby codes are more like cross-country wrestling. Another concession is that Rugby League now incorporates factors of skill across the board, and little resembles the unimaginative dirge of the past.
But it's still a minor sport, all things considered.
I mean, more people watch Collingwood train that get to the average game of league in Sydney. Not all the time, but during September. You won't get to see it this year though. Hahahahhahahhaha.. Fkn hate Collingwood.
I joined a small wechat group and regularly tune in to that.
I still have a look at ECC from time to time but not so often now. Given, however, there's practically nothing to do in China, I'll no doubt gravitate back to the site more regularly soon enough.
Would help, though, if some of those agitators of the past would come back too.
I miss some of the more colourful contributors we had before.
As an aside, I never thought the day would come when I'd fall in line behind the other time wasters/zombies who are slaves to a computer phone, but there you are.
I blame my wife.
As a comment to RoyceH above.....Bring Back Phil
Phil is money in the bank for a struggling site.
icnif77:
Phil was LT member (like me 
), and he shouldn't be deleted (without receiving all pending jackets
) so fast!
icnif77:
In Stock market lingo, 'life time' term doesn't exist
.
'Long term' is entirely different game: ''it usually means, stock price is way bellow your purchasing price, so you'll most likely wait 'longer time' to became 'green' again, hence you call yourself 'long term investor'' . 'Foked for life' is the same variation.
My mama said too much posting online is bad for my eyes.
I ended up go offline and do eye exercise.
You know the new version of eye exercise? It's no longer the massage on the nerves around eyes but eyeballs rolling.
While I was busy rolling my eyeballs I saw a cute guy...he was staring at me...and thought I was crazy...
And not just that, the news spread fast and now everyone thought I am crazy!
OMG. Now I can never get a cute date again!
And I swear I'll never use ECC again, ever!
So I ended up posting this on here.
It feels quite a release.
Now I just need to go offline and do some eye exercise...
I think the problem, or part of it is that people are leaving for the usual reasons... they get a life in China so don't need to vent online anymore or they leave China and so aren't interested in the forum anymore... but new people aren't joining to replace those who leave.
There have been people who joined, they post something and get slammed and abused for being trolls. To be fair some of them are obvious trolls, but I've seen a few new posters who ask new guy type of questions - eg how do you know when you're been in China too long? It's when.... blah blah blah...
Everyone here has seen those things online more than once I'm sure and probably roll our eyes every time we see it again, but when the new guy gets a barrage of abuse when he's just trying to fit in he probably won't be back. Some have even said as much.
Wolf raised a good point I think. Everyone likes to watch a fight and they do get the clicks, but of those clicks I'd bet most if not all are the same few people tuning in every chance they get to watch the blood flow. I know I do that, and I wouldn't want to stop people having a good old fashioned online war but at the same time I do wonder how many guest visitors see a few people being complete dicks to people and just move on.
The-Final-Say:
What you said is true. Just look at the local social media and see sights and short videos of what the masses do whenever there is a car crash or beatdown. They pool, stare, comment, make videos and take photos. It is not a good quality of humanity but it seems to work. Maybe creating an "anything goes" forum just for ridiculous banter would help. As long as people do not break laws, should be ok.
I have never been what I consider to be a regular contributor, I'm not an expat, but I have some personal observations as to why this may be so. 1.) China expats have always had a high turnover. If I left China, I probably rarely would look back on this forum. People come, people go. When a particularly lively contributor leaves China, it affects the whole group. These are natural cycles. 2.) The list of unanswered questions about China is getting thin. Whenever something newsworthy arises that affects expats there is usually a rise in the number of comments. This is also a natural cycle. 3.) Finally (and probably the reason I contribute much less these days) We have far too much to do here than waste time on forums. I came here for a reason and I am fulfilling it. When there is a lull in my other activities, I may dabble here but most of the time I am exploring China with my family and other activities.
iWolf makes an interesting comment. His theory is that slinging sh#t back and forth (which is what he admits he and Phil does) is what made this site more popular. I hope that isn't the case. It is precisely that kind of activity that keeps me away from online forums. When I want to unwind, I like to have reasoned discussions with persons who are educated on the topic. I don't enjoy reading juvenile garbage of the sort that I have seen here recently. But then again, this is the state of society. The Karashians will always get the most attention from the masses. It seems our society has devolved to slinging sh#t and watching others sling it back. So, for the expats' sake, perhaps it makes sense to do as he suggests and provide an arena for this juvenile sort of behaviour. After all, this is China.
iWolf:
I have issue with a few points:
You make it appear that Phil and I are the only people to ever have slung shit on this site. Well that's just bullshit.
In fact, if you bother to check you would see that most of my posts and I assume Phil's aren't slinging any shit.
I remember a particularly long debate we had for a few days about creationism.
"Help those in genuine need and take the piss out of those who deserve it"
xinyuren:
"You make it appear that Phil and I are the only people....(snip)". I did no such thing. This was your theory (in which you admited to sling sh#t), not mine. I simply commented on what YOU wrote. In regards to your insinuation that I contributed to the slinging, I disagree. While I admit to insulting Shining in that thread, the stuff I was slinging was far from sh#t. At least, it was a reasoned debate, sprinkled with a little sh#t talking to spice it up. Furthermore, it ended with an apology and never spread to other threads outside the topic. This is in stark contrast to the pissing matches lately that have grown to proportions well beyond the original threads. I think your memory is faulty.
Id like to answer it goes like this
baby I never went away,I just always wanted to stay because I never went away baby I have always been here oh yeh oh yeh oh yeh baby baby baby I never went anywhere just here ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yehhhhhhhhhhhhhh
thank you goodnight you have been a wonderful crowd.
I mostly focus on Visa's, new policies, help new guys out, "How to live in China" and wait for the dream day of when married folks can work in China. So these days no interesting topics. Wait for July and August, the pinch of the new policies should be felt around that time.
The-Final-Say:
My biggest dream too, no more giving power to bosses, let the local spouse be the responsible one, like it is everywhere else in the modern world.
sex sells ..... impromtu bullshit sells ...... real questions will always be picked up by most real contributors ..... there is no reason to censor the bullshit in between. the whole damn thing is more an entertainment site and "venting", but, yes but, there are some pretty educated and knowledgeable folks on here that can anser real question..... no censorship.... no moderation, except from the #1 boss of ECC ..... just the #1 guy can advise me to shut up.
cub:
bhgal, just curious, if u have young kids like 2 to 5 years old, do u let them drive a car or operate machinery or fire weapons? if u do have kids this age and u dont allow them to do these things tell my why not? just curious
Shining_brow:
What yopu are suggesting, BH, is that ECC become a free for all. ie, absolutely NO restraints.
Meaning - if someone gets abused, then it's fine! If someone is verbally attacked, maliciously, threats made, etc,... its' all good.
Remove the 'report' button.
Well, that goes entirely against the rest of the ECC site. ECC doesn't post the gratuitious, overly sensationalised stuff that other sites do (which is why we have the occasional links to them from here).
Also, I don't think a forum needs to have the "don't come here unless you have a thick skin" policy..
It's possible to vent without being abusive towards other ECC members. It's possible to have a shit-fight without continued abuse.
Cat, do you miss me? Wanna fish?I like ECC because there are a lot of smart people who post here and not a ton of the really toxic stuff you see on other expat forums.
The problem, for me at least, is that there are a lot of things that are starting to feel sketchy in the current political climate. Like every time I see one of those obvious "token question" accounts like Delphine or NiceBrice say something negative about the west it makes me a little bit paranoid about what I should be saying. Like I don't want to be cited in a story on China Daily about how "Expats in forums think they are better than us!"
Plus a lot of the PC stuff that I think others are whining about is silly, but at the risk of being genuinely offensive, this is probably not a good forum for a young single chinese guy to be posting on or reading based on what a lot of members will post out frustration. For example those with Chinese girlfriends get frustrated about young single chinese men, often in groups, insulting them in public. So they come here and vent about it with many others who have had the same experience. A young single chinese guy might not understand that context and see it as "this foreign asshole with all the advantages thinks he's better than us!"
And I can relate to that, I'd feel the same way going on a forum for Chinese students studying in the US and reading all the negative, petty things i'm sure they say about us. But I don't choose to do that because I have no reason to be there. The nature of these kinds of forums is that expats will be venting and making generalizations, not to be a safe space for the most sensitive local who is making a conscious choice to participate here who gets offended by those generalizations.
Joking aside, I'm pretty mild myself. I have a very comfortable life here and and engaging career and MBA program, nor do I date local girls and experience the xenophobia firsthand. I don't really have any problems with China. But I can empathize with the people who do. When someone is complaining about how insecure local men can be, it's not because they are some victorian-era colonialist who thinks they are all horrid beasts. It's because some guy called his girlfriend a race traitor to her face in front of him and that is very upsetting. That's not some debatable, petty "microagression" either. Of course that doesn't apply to everyone but it's common enough to be a problem and it must feel very frustrating to be told you aren't allowed to say that because it might offend someone. They aren't monsters or racists they just get frustrated and use this as a place to seek support.
It just seems like the signal-to-noise ratio of genuine venting and carrying on to stifling conversation with accusations and smears is getting too low. And unfortunately I don't know exactly what to do to fix that.
I agree with a number of comments on here (but not all).
Firstly, people just move on, and haven't been replaced.. This implies that either ECC isn't generating a new crowd, or new people come and quickly leave again. For the first, you have a marketing issue. For the second, obviously something doesn't keep them here (again, marketing) or they're being turned off by something. There's clearly a lot of venting on here. And a lot of anti-China stuff (so, one may assume, as Expat said, that locals would be turned off).
So, we're left with expats. What would turn them off?
For one, threads that are merely slanging matches and shit-fights. Personal attacks, abusive language, puerile BS. "What a load of crap" is one thing - especially when it then is backed up with something intelligent (ie, attack the post, not the poster). I've been in a LOT of those threads - they get heated... BUT they tend not to devolve too much into personal (abusive) attacks - and, as Xinyuren said above, it stays on that thread! (well, usually 
)
When "You are a fucking wanker" or other similar comments is posted on ALL threads of a user, and nothing else... I think that puts people off! Especially when the post is actually thought out and says something useful.
I've seen some of the harmonisations that have been happening recently - those that have been removed added nothing to the thread...
So, regulars leave because of life, and because of what's going on here. (or lack of it). You're unlikely to ever change the 'life' reason.
I, personally, don't have that much of an issue with the click-accounts (as long as the questions aren't too baited - stupid comparisons between the US and China are just stupid! I didn't have a problem with CTFU questions - as long as they didn't lead to an ad for them - "how much should FT's be paid?" is a genuine question!)
expatlife26:
Right...and I agree with you that I don't think this site is moderated with a particularly heavy hand.
I'm not a big forum guy but one of the things I really like about ECC is that people here don't get bent out of shape when a topic comes up again. Old threads don't get locked. Doesn't seem like there are tons of rules.
On the other hand, I really don't like the trend of communities needing to cater to the sensibility of the most easily offended person. On "PC culture" i'm totally not against the idea of a "safe space" on principle...people SHOULD (especially members of genuinely vulnerable groups!) have a place where they can chill out. But that space needs to be clearly defined. It can't be everywhere that anyone with any reason to be offended might decide to go.
An internet forum catering to a group to which you are not a part of, at least in the context of locals getting offended by discussions of China, I think is a prime example of this. This is NOT a safe space for an insecure local who is anti-westerner in China...but it's fair to say that "Chinese Patriot" is not a particularly vulnerable group within China and further they are in no way obligated to be here. If they don't like what is being said, they can simple not read or participate in this forum.
If someone is choosing to seek out offense and outrage I think that usually says a lot more about them as a person than it does about the people whose opinions they find so outrageous.
I wanted to do a "part deux" post about anthromorphic climate change that was a recent thread, focusing on picking apart all the fear mongering skewed statistics of Al Gores "an inconvenent truth" marking almost to the day its decade anniversary. but to be honest, I got a VPN and am involved with it.
C'est a vie.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Inconvenient_Truth
I have been using this website as a source of useful information for almost 10 years. It is informative and has a high visibility amongst expats and locals who interact with expats. Having said that, the customer service is the lowest point of this website. Cases in point, my account was abused by a moderator once for giving an honest, cleancut opinion. I made a complaint and took me 3 days to reach anyone at this website. I cannot easily get access to the leaders, phone number of the office, or admins. It was only after digging deep into the bowels of this site, did I find an administrator and was able to personally message for help and after a short research I received my account back with an apology.
Fast forward to today, I found my account was again frozen, this time in the classifieds due to an issue of a very personal nature. A fake agency based in the capital wanted to hire my services last summer when I posted inquiries under Jobs. Later, they got my phone number and called me. I was polite with them and agreed to go to Beijing to meet and discuss a contract. The problem is I was looking for work outside of Beijing but they claimed to have an office in my destination city. However, a red light went off in my head when the mentioned that I needed a non-criminal record as I would be hired through the capital visa office. As the Chinese laws clearly stipulate, one should have the visa done at the office of residency and work, not from a central location. I dug up information about this company and found many complaints, mostly from unpaid salaries from staff sent away to other cities, also having more and more percentages of salaries being siphoned off for various excuses that left the expat without representation and sometimes even bullied. It was at that time that I decided to decline the offer. They got angry and started harassing me all the time. I was getting emails, people kept trying to add my Wechat, and I received phone calls from strangers from places as Harbin to Shanghai, and Beijing. As I know, foreigners in China are left without any true legal recourse so the simple thing was to just change my phone number and ignore everything else, which is what I did. Then I got a message from you admins here, saying that my account was frozen due to "an employer reporting me to the website that my phone number was not correct and that an admin proved this to be true". First of all, my phone number is private and I give it only to people who earn my trust and job hunting means I need time to build such trust. Second, Mr. Administrator, explain to me why I have sent many inquiries through your complaints line about asking for a verbal talk without anyone at your website paying respect to my concerns? It is so difficult to free my account because your phone numbers are protected and yet you ask me to be truthful about my own phone number? Is this fair? Now I am considering about the usefulness and safety as resulting from this website. Do I continue to use it and if so I require an explanation and a certain amount of safety from you people, or do I give it up? Why does this website require phone numbers to be made public in JOBS categories for employers? Shouldn't that feature be optional? Furthermore, isn't data collection by a website in China a serious issue that is heavily regulated by the local authorities? Why would anyone who is passively seeking my services in today's job market, report me for an old phone number when they still can contact me via email? My only conclusion is that this is because someone still wants to have at me for declining their position before, perhaps worried about what I might say or do. Does the website bear any real responsibility in this? Franky speaking, I am not after anything here but some friendly customer service and a guarantee that I shouldn't be harassed by fake job offerers who are too scared about their own reputations to realize to move on after a year of not a word from someone as me. I'd love to see a true, honest, and sincere effort on your part since you have asked this question. Thank you. By the way, I have sent many messages through the proper channels and also finally got a phone number to the Beijing office and staff there seemed to behave as if they had no clue as to what they were doing. I was hung up on with a promise that someone would be contacting me back for my inquiry and as of yet I have received no contact. What does a person have to do to get real help from the establishment of this website?
iWolf:
Nice one dude. Do you feel better getting that off your chest? I hope so!! An epic rant. Kudos.
The-Final-Say:
I will use this website until I am not welcome anymore. Having said that, I do intend to see my issue resolved properly, either as a whisp of vapor, a mosquito, or a doomsday machine.
Because you're never on here! When we ask you to do something it never gets done. When we message you and are in serious, serious trouble you never reply or help! Now sometimes I feel unsafe posting anything on eChinacities. It needs more admins! With the power to delete topics or edit them when requested!
I AM SO ANGRY AT YOU RIGHT NOW! STILL!!
YOU ALMOST RUINED MY LIFE!
Viki87:
Same here. Cat I request you to delete all my ecc accounts for my privacy( I have several accounts) Can you do that? I am working with foreigners and I am in an important position planning for my career and life. I am afraid my privacy will go out. If I want to use ecc again, I need to create a new name without my name, picture, or much private info attached.
Just throwing this out there, what if we took the website and changed it so EVERYTHING is in TOTAL LOCK STEP with the agenda, goals and values of the CFTU
Instead of lots of topics on random stuff there would be ONE TOPIC and it would be whatever the CFTU says it should be.
Then ALL USERS are required to post in agreement of this topic. NO EXCEPTIONS. If you don't agree you can rot in prison, buddy cause the CFTU is gonna be back and they're not taking any prisoners.
So that way people will log on to the site and feel good knowing that there is UNITY and DIGNITY to be found here.
I think that sounds like a lot more fun for everyone.
ONE TOPIC, ONE OPINION, MANY USERS
expatlife26:
Hey I was just throwing a fun idea out there. I don't deserve to be downvoted for it.
Remember too if my idea is taken up then everyone who downvotes this will be branded (literally) as a traitor to the forum
If I was me I would be thinking about how to upvote this post
Why do people leave this site?
Poor engagement by Admin is probably one reason.
About 6 months ago the then Admin asked what the site users would like to see.
most replied citing things like highlighting/shortcutting useful posts containing visa info, dealing with difficult employers etc.
The Admin at the time totally ignored all these suggestions and did not acknowledge, let alone engage with forum users, especially when it comes to obvious they are 'token' (read fake) accounts that ask purposely provocative questions and then exhibit 'butt hurt' when outed.
A user above, The-Final-Say posted a disturbing account of Admins lack of engagement, and i know Admin has been online since and failed to be seen to respond.
You - Admin - exhibit Chinese characteristics when dealing with mostly non-Chinese users and I for one don't appreciate the passive aggressive treatment most of us have to deal with on a daily basis.
Show some b***s because you are not dealing with passive Chinese here, but people who expect questions to be answered in an open way.
The 'when in Rome' BS does not apply.
I am willing to help as much as the next poster, but when a user is outed as a fake by further probing of their question (this happens when they 'get offended' when asked for clarity or caught out in an obvious flaky post), their butt hurt is nothing but impotent whining, whereas the genuine receive (hopefully) useful suggestions.
So Admin, you are also responsible for the state of this site.
Your lack of open engagement is killing it.
Harmonisation will also kill it.
ScotsAlan:
I tried to engage. But I was shot down in flames from day zero. I tried to figure it out. I tried to mend, I tried to be fair, but no matter what I done, or did not do, it was not good enough. I ended up not wanting to look at this site any more. What attack will I have today. I went offline for weeks. I found myself not able to look at ecc unless I had loads of beer onboard. And all of this on a website with everyone mad by definition (living in china after all), and in a position where one wrong decision could result in a cup of tea at the local police station... Wow. Coin was spot on. I should have kept my mouth shut. The problem was not the user mods, the problem was that I was a user mod. Left wing and all that. But I believe in honesty. Being a mod conflicted with that. I have been in a bad place over the past few months. It really messed my head up. Not because of me going power mad. But because my sense of fairness was subjected to ridicule. And with little support from... I wish ECC all the best. Its a fantastic forum. The best in China. But its not for me anymore. Sorry Grumpy Cat.
sorrel:
In fairness Scots, the whole 'use-mod' concept was a (if you excuse my language) half-baked, cheap assed and ill-advised way to fob off the responsibility of a job that should be done by someone impartial and for a fee, and I appreciate that it was very unfair to ask a poster with their own opinions and experiences to moderate everything while participating on their own behalf.
It was doomed to failure regardless of who was nominated as whoever they were would have been harassed by other users, as impartiality implies not getting caught in the day-to-day banter.
I would certainly not have seen the offer of this position as an 'honour'.
Anyone who has been on this forum for a while as i have been has witnessed how far things have gone in terms of allowing fakes and wumao's continued butt-hurt whining, and how this affects more sincere and helpful posters.
If you are going to set up a site with the purpose to invite participation, and offer incentives, be they jackets or torches or whatever, at least have the integrity to follow through and not stick your head in the sand at the first sign of a challenge.
At home any business i know, and i know quite a few owners, engages with customers every day through their site, so all customes can see.
This is basic business practice.
Yes, i know, this is China.
ScotsAlan:
I see your point sorrel. And your point is totally justified in that I answered this question as a reply to your answer rather than start a fresh answer. I am not looking for excuses, or allies. I just want somewhere to vent. I wont vent here anymore. But I will stay on as a poster. Any visa info I know of I will post. I posted a new question tonight. I will vent on wechat from now.
expatlife26:
yeah the token accounts like Delphine, nicebrice and hal are bothersome. And I posted about it and a couple times my comments were deleted which doesn't exactly support them being organic posters or even run of the mill local trolls. Like for example Howwhywhen i think is a local troll as opposed to a random question mill account.
And I dont even have a problem with random question accounts to get discussions going. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. It's the mean-spirited anti-foreigner/western questions that are so creepy. Like the site itself is being disrespectful to the community because it generates traffic to insult us and get us defensive.
I said in my own post an expat forum cannot be a safe space for the most easily offended person who turns up. For example while this forum isn't half as toxic and racist as some of the other ones out there, this is still not a good place for a thin skinned local. Just as i'm sure some forums for Chinese living in the US wouldn't be for tons of thin-skinned americans. We all post here at our own risk in terms of our sensibilities and that MUST include every user that turns up here. This is a internet forum, nobody is required to be here and I think in trying to make this inoffensive for those it doesn't cater to it's driven away the people it does cater to.
Shining_brow:
I'm genuinely curious - do you both (Sorrel & ExpatL) think that wumaos and ECC accounts should be banned?
In reference to some of the obvious stuff - it's no worse than the anti-China stuff that gets posted regularly... so I'd see it as a double-standard. We can drop shit on China, but they can't drop shit on us. If it's really pathetic, I ignore it. If it's another "China is better than the US of A' I'll ignore it.
Recently, we've had a lot less overtly nationalistic Chinese crap (with one exception.. who called himself a Czech!!)
I don't think those posters bring the forum down in any way. They are too few, and the responses too many to do that. And too many other posts to focus on.
The User-mod job was politicised when it shouldn't have been (well, actually, it wasn't - it was just attacked, and sometimes politics was used as an excuse).. It was also made extremely personal.. As Sorrel said - it wouldn't have really mattered who it was - they were going to come under fire by someone (and, in fact, they WERE under fire - well before Scots came out... showing just how irrelevant who the person was!)
TIC... divide and self-destruct.
expatlife26:
Hey Shining,
I wouldn't say it is a double standard to oppose anti-expat/western sentiment on a forum where the topic is answers to questions for expats in China.
What if this was a fan forum for Game of Thrones or something. You can have members saying "that episode sucked" or "Shows going downhill" or whatever because they are speaking as fans in a fan forum. But somebody shows up saying "Game of thrones is gay ur all fags" "Xena warrior princess kicks game of thrones ass!' etc. then yeah you can ban that person.
This isn't like a public institution of justice that has a duty to weigh and balance and give a platform for all sides to voice their opinions equally. Someone who explicitly hates expats and/or the countries we come from doesn't belong here.
And flip it around...without looking i'm sure there are tons of english language forums for recent muslim immigrants to the US. Forums full of mostly reasonable people trying their best and asking questions like "Wheres the best halal shop in east pittsburgh?" or whatever. If I hate muslim immigrants and go and ask questions like "Are muslims really all misogynist trash?" "Are we ruining America?" then the good people of that forum have every right to call for my banning. Even if they are being critical of americans, calling US girls whores or saying american guys are pussies. It reflects more on me that I go looking for trouble online than that a bunch of frustrated losers blame their problems on america.
So no, it's not a double standard. It's like saying on a Yankees forum that Red Sox fans who hate the yankees have as much right to post as anybody. This is not a public institution.
Shining_brow:
I would say it's a double standard if you're calling for someone to be banned for such posts! (depending on the phrasing...)
I noticed a couple of years ago that threads like "Why are Chinese all so stupid?" were 'harmonised'. Should they have stayed? If it was "Why are Americans all so stupid?", should that stay or go? If the first stays, but the second goes, then yes - it's a double-standard (even if you can find ways that ''justify' it!)
JonathonSteele was soundly hounded out (and there was some pretty toxic stuff on his). Should it have stayed?
Same question really comes down to trolling - posting just to get negative responses (which is why I found it odd that the CTFU guys were consistently banned... other than blatant advertising, there was nothing inherently wrong with their posts!)
IMHO - "GoT is for fags - you're all gay" should be deleted (maybe banned after a few). "Zena rocks, GoT sucks" should stay... and let the downvotes overflow... (yes, I am a bit PC
expatlife26:
Shining, do you really think the comment that "got is for fags" should be deleted? It's an example of an outrageously shitty, hostile comment that a troll would make to disrupt a forum which should result in a ban.
it's not what I think or feel in any way shape or form, it's a discussion of the kind of person who doesn't belong on a forum and the kinds of things they say to get members riled up which includes using foul offensive language.
expatlife26:
you know what? I misunderstood you shining. You were also talking about banning in the context of the fan forum based on offensive language, I thought you were saying deleting my example here, shouldn't post before my 2nd cup of coffee.
I get it. And I agree with you, ignore what I said above. Have a good one.
I'd like to have a sit down with this website's owner and get a feeling of whether he really cares about things or not. I sincerely doubt he even knows this questions was posted by one of his own, nor do I believe anyone has read my complaints.
Anyway, just look at the Expat shaming posts and compare them to the positive posts and also the posts where foreigners have been wronged by locals such as unethical bosses, tea house scams, and the crooked. We are reading a slightly more inflamed version of China Daily English.
july
Well, personally it's because we left China, and neither of us want to go back. Well, actually... I miss it. I miss a lot of things about China, except the craziness of course. We have kids now, and I don't have much time to post here anymore.
When I *do* try to post, the website is so frigging slow, I can barely participate. Plus I'm always working, doing my new thing in my new field. Why bother posting if it takes me literally 2-3 minutes to load a damn page? Don't get me started on actually trying to post an answer... that takes longer than the life of the universe has existed up until now.
royceH:
Holy Shit, Hulk! So how old are you now then? I guess the answer lies with Paul Simon......"Man, you old!"
Reckon I saw Red Fox the other day. Yeah, he was playing a role in a Batman film. At first I had my doubts but then I saw that twinkle in the old bastard's eye. Yep, it was him alright.
Anyone know what happened to the bugger after that?
well...
1st- Today is Monday the 30th and the main news section on the homepage, still havent any news article by monday 17:45, and the last ne uploaded is dated friday the 27th.
2nd- The artcicles are just traslated from a CH news website, without the editor adding any social insights or cristicism to the related piece, is like news for dummies. Your daily traffic loses interest.
3rd - The job section is mainly offers for teaching positions, im not a teacher and thousands of other fellow expats arent, nothing against the craft, just log into linkedin and you have hundreds of job ads in different areas, as marketing, my area, which on the 5th year in china im at my 3rd marketing job role, which i found in other sites. Its advised to make partnerships with job agencies/agents in order to have a wider range of job offfers and calling in a wider range of crowd.
Lack of traffic on the forum, at some extent would be due to some of the points mentioned above
would continue, but ran out of time
Stiggs:
It's true, the news page isn't much of a reason to visit the site. If that was revamped it might attract more people.
Englteachted:
Right on, but I don't want the editor to add anything. But I why not translate the more interesting news items trending. These days my wife does a better job letting me know the interesting news items.
