Yes, I find your description of some people on this site very fitting!

And there should be Choice C: Accept the fact that the bar is not yours and the bar owner may decide on bar practices within the scope of valid legislation irrespective of your oppinion.

That's exactly the point. Well done! Honestly!

Political power comes from the barrel of a gun. Conformity can only be ensured with force, or mind numbing "reality" television. I'd prefer force.

Choice B sounds like an SJW (Social Justice Warrior). I'm all for liberal points of view but that includes other people's rights to have different ones and not enforce them on me, as I try not to enforce mine on others. (I was vegetarian for 25 years and would never object to someone ordering a bloody/rare steak while I ate my rabbit food!)

I must admit that i do find it fascinating that dozens of threads come and go with lively debate, insight, experience and some good humour. Then enter cub and the spring festival peasants and each discussion devolves into a shitfest. Sure, i accept some responsibility for troll baiting and troll hunting these nutsacks. It's just interesting how they bring out the worst in everyone.

where is that bar, I really wanna go so I can get mifed and leave it again ?

In all seriousness. Online debate is always tainted by the fact that it is "free" to come with outrageous remarks. The extreme comments are easier to come with because they have no real consequences except you will get labeled by the few people on the forum.

I take my daughter to the local bar. If there is nobody smoking inside I will take her in. If there are people smoking I will go elsewhere.

I was in the bar with my daughter about a year ago. About 9:30 at night. The smokers were smoking outside ( I never asked them to smoke outside, they follow my example when I go out for a smoke). A UK guy said a bar was no place for a child and I should take her home at once. I said " This is China, not the UK!"

Now, I might moan about China and its culture. But no way do I want to change it. China is changing at a faster rate than any other society in history. It does not need my help to change.  And if I did try to change it, I would be in the wrong.

These guys that come here and say change that, change this, are doing exactly the same that they fear war refugees will do in their country. They fear change, want things to be static to their rules, but don't realize that every society is changing. It just changes at different speeds. Slow changes make people hanker after the old days, fast changes sweep the obstinate away.

I remember back to the 80's. My first marriage. We went on honeymoon to a place called Oban, on the west coast of Scotland. An elderly couple were sitting at the table next to us eating breakfast. They complained non stop about how the town had been destroyed. When they first visited 40 years ago it was a town of simple God fearing fisherman, grateful to see them. But now it was a commercial cesspool with everyone setting up businesses to take their money from them.

So much for the free market, eh?

That sort of summed it up for me. An upper middle class English couple who wanted an entire town to stay in God fearing poverty so they could have a nice place to holiday for 2 weeks a year.

Communities need to change at their own speed, and at their own desire.

Now, to put myself at risk now: when we meet one of these "missionaries" of the western system, we should pose this question...  "What about Tibet?"

I bet every one of them who complain that China needs to change, would say Tibet should stay the same. They will say Tibet should be a poor country of superstition, with a leader selected by the stars. It would give them a nice place to go on holiday, for 2 weeks.

The changers are selfish people. They care not about a place. They just want good stories to tell at a dinner party. "Look Timothy, I gave this Tibetan peasant a dime and he let me take his photo".... " But China. Terrible place. We tried to teach them western values and laws, but they laughed at us... disgusting"

There is a serious side of course to people wanting to change other countries. Invasion. Iraq, Syria etc. But a more insidious side too.

Many of the recent anti-gay laws introduced in African countries can be traced to American anti-gay evangelists. They go and they preach, they convert and they want people to die for their sexuality.

Here is a good one. If you have a VPN, Youtube search  "Kevin Swanson".

Sorry for the long rambling answer.

Who's right and who's wrong? Easy; me. I am. Glad we've got that sorted out.

Truthfully though I think this may be an old poster, but it doesn't matter, I get the point, let's all be nice and sweet and say nice sweet things all the time. Except for one thing. It's boring. I tried out another site that was suggested on here just a couple of weeks ago and it was exactly that, and within about five minutes I wanted to put a gun in my mouth.

I used to complain on here about four years ago that a lot of the members of this forum made racist comments. I still think a lot of them do. But I was a hypocrite. I don't go a day in China without calling someone a monkey and wanting to blast them in the face. I've got my own way of looking at things and rationalizing cultural differences and trying to see people in an equal light, but I defy anyone who isn't from China to live here for anything over a year without getting wound up and pissed off 'a lot' of the time, and if coming on here and ripping it out helps people let off steam, good luck to them.

My old friend HughGRection (classy name, I know) used to argue on here with me (don't say that, don't say this) but he's been in China half the time I have and I've known him get in at least three fist fights just dealing with the mindfuck of driving on Chinese roads.

If old McDonald really is in Ireland waiting to come over, maybe he should wait till he's been here a while before he starts telling people what to think and how to talk, and once he's done that and decides to return to this forum, he might also remind himself of that oft heard adage, that tired old refrain that naery a week passes by without hearing: If you don't like it here, then be a good fellow, and off you fuck.

I'll choose a shit talking sailor bar over a wine bar filled with peace talking Mennonites any day.

The way this is phrased, the question is used as an analogy to non-Chinese who try to impose their own culture/expect a modicum of human decency (take your pick how to phrase).

That brings it the baggage of Westerners feeling the pressure to respect all cultures, lest be accused of cultural imperialism.

Here is a counter question: Is it possible that some cultural practices should be opposed?

Consider this situation: A black family moves to some hick town in the US South, where the Klan still is in control. The Klansmen burn crosses on the black family’s lawn, shout racial slurs, and threaten them with nooses tied to their trees.

Would you tell the black family that they should either accept the local culture, or leave? Would you just shrug and say, “Well, that’s how the Klan is. Not my place to judge their culture”, or would you judge the bejaysus out of them for being racist?

Do you think that Hollywood should still use yellow face in comedy (like Mickey Rooney)? It was the culture, and the offended parties should just go back to their own countries if they don’t like it. Who are these foreigners to tell us Westerners not to call them Japs or Chinks?

I am fine saying that some things are simply abhorrent (like racism), and plenty more are not evil, but at least not objectively “good” (putting money ahead of human life, cruelty, making others breathe in smoke, public defecation/urination, etc.).

Yes, definitely Some practices and behaviors should change. I would gladly condemn racism and xenophobia, regardless of who practices it, be them BNP, KKK, or CCP. They can all claim it’s their culture, and “foreigners shouldn’t change them”, but in all cases, I can say, with a clear conscious, that they are wrong.

Yes there is a choice C. I can choose to stay there because the problems does not bother me too much. But does that mean I shouldn't  complain to other patrons? 

With intelligent people, there is a respect for different opinions. I'll give you an example, I often eat out with a few co workers to a particular restaurant. We talk about what we like about the restaurant  and what we don't like about the restaurant. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree, we engage in a polite and sometimes heated debate, in the end either someone is convinced to change their mind or we agree to disagree  (80% of the time). 

There were a few occasions when knew or met the owner of an establishment that I patroned (US and China but foreign owned). I told them what I liked and what I didn't like, they either agreed or disagreed. They didn't get angry and tell me to leave, they always welcomed me back again and again. 

Sensible people are always chasing perfection and looking for ways to improve. Sensible people can disagree and will appreciate ideas given freely. 

Just because a place is not exactly what you want doesn't mean it's not ok for now.