By continuing you agree to eChinacities's Privacy Policy .
Sign up with Google
Sign up with Facebook
Q: Why are there so many conspiracy nuts here? Bunch of hypocrites.
I meet a lot of expats here, both online and in person, who say they something along the lines of "I couldn't bear living in the US because it's gotten too socialist/fascist/corrupt!" Yeah...so you moved to China?
I'm sure all of our tax dollars are well spent here! Edward Snowden? Gee we learned that maybe the US watches us half as much as china does. You realize you need a ID card/passport to buy a SIM card or get on the internet here?
That doesn't make the west perfect...but again if that's what you get worked up over...you're probably not doing anything interesting in your life and you probably have no real goals.
Of course the US government does some shady things...all governments do, but don't act like coming to china is making you some kind of hero.
That's the type of stuff people worry about instead of being happy. We live in a flawed world full of flawed people...the more we get worked up over nonsense the less time we spend worrying about our own lives and how we can improve them.
i dont consider myself a hero in anyway, i just want to be left alone and what i read on the internet, what i buy and where i go is nobody's damn business.
living your life to be happy with no attention to the leaders is an easy way to be one of the slaughtered sheep. i wonder how happy the jews were in germany in 1936 or the chinese teachers and doctors living their happy lives before the cultural revolution, history does not reflect well on people who forget authority and just live their lives, not sure the world is any better now for this philosophy, but people oblivious to nothing but family do seem to live longer than others if war does not interfere.
the grandmother who never reads the news and lives to a hundred and her husband who read the paper and worried about the future and dies of a heart attack at 70. i wish i was the grandmother but i would probably have to take drugs to avoid worry and thinking too much.
expatlife26:
I guess my question to you is what, under different political circumstances could make it possible for you to make money in the US? How have things changed so much since the bush years?
Of course it's possible for people to get good jobs in the US...in fact there are more Doctors, Consultants, Financial Professionals, Laywers, Businessmen now than ever before...it's just that getting those types of jobs takes either connections or a ton of advance planning with good execution, which is what I've been trying to do getting an entry-level analyst job here and trying to get the experience to get something good back home.
I'm not saying it's fair..., I wish things could have worked out so I could have gotten hired at home right out of school. But it's not any one man's fault.
Hell if I get mad at anybody...it's me for not trying in high school and getting to go to a top school. I can't control what obama does...I could have controlled that.
ambivalentmace:
i have never gotten a job from a poor man, i always work for a rich corporation or individual, demonizing the rich will make them a scrooge and scare the hell out of them. making threats of additional cost will make them risk aversive to expansion and hiring more people. apple sitting on over 100 billion dollars oversees because if they bring it home, the government will try and get all they can of it, should the government have some, sure no problem, but how much, how much is enough, the unknown and fear of obama has done most of the damage, nobody wants to buy a car, nobody has any confidence, so nobody spends especially the rich.
rich people have budgets also, the yacht, the harvard education for their kids, so i give half my pay, leave me alone, dont come back next year for 55 percent, now i have to sell the yacht, screw it, i just want buy the yacht and now all those people making the yacht are out of business.
i cashed out my 401k and loss 40 percent, penalty and taxes, the dollar losing value to stagflation and the government one day taking the account and giving me an annuity of treasures would be worse and one day this will happen, already talking about it. when the middle class is gone and the rich all move to other countries, they will pay the bills taking retirement accounts.
my generation has bankrupted the new generation, unless you have money saved, we are looking at japan moderate or no growth for 20 years, best advise for an american young male, marry a canadian lady or norway and get to hell out and dont look back. wish i could be more optimistic but when you confiscate all the income over 100000 dollars for a year and it still can pay for the current years budget, your doomed, especially since it gets worse every year.
Shining_brow:
AM - your first post is confusing - first you say that ignorance gets one walked over, then you say it's better to not bother with knowing about what's going on....
expatlife26:
But they don't confiscate all the income over 100K! I know because both my parents take home more than that even after taxes...the top federal bracket is still in the mid-30%s and i have never heard either of them threaten to 'stop working' to stick it to the evil tax man. For those like my Grandma whose income is mostly dividends (which is similar to many of the super-rich though she certainly doesn't qualify as that!) the tax rate is even lower. Significantly less than 20%.
US federal income taxes at that level are lower than pretty much any other country...excepting city-states like HK and Singapore who have the ability to finance their budgets in other ways.
Hell I'm with you...I hate the idea of punitive taxes against the wealthy strangling the economy. But that's simply not the reality at this point. France is actually trying a 70% marginal bracket...let's see how it works for them.
I think you're misrepresenting a lot of people.
I, for example, live in China because I enjoy traveling, have a leisurely lifestyle here, and am attached to my girlfriend. I didn't move here as some kind of statement about the US (especially as I'm from Australia).
Criticising the United States while living in China does not indicate hypocrisy. Everyone here is quite clear about the CCP's censorship, surveillance, silencing of dissent, indoctrination, history distortion, and historical atrocities. The validity of people's opinions does not change based on geographical location.
EZ4ME2B is rather vocal about America, and as TMaster suggested, is kind of getting off topic. His anti-America crusade is becoming a bit tiresome and will run its course over time.
The majority of us are happy discussing whatever topics come up. We are entirely aware that China's political situation is worse than America's, but in a conversation about surveillance and censorship, it would be hypocritical not to mention America.
Cricket:
I agree with Samsarra all the way. Don't get defensive if people criticize America. I am also American and do not approve of most of what our government is going overseas. And although I would expect China ro spy on its own citizens, I would never expect that from my government. I think that is why most Americans are so outraged about the unpleasant surprise we all got from Mr. Snowden last year.
expatlife26:
Fair enough +1 from me.
there's a lot of good reasons to be here...but running from Obama is not one of them. I don't agree with all his politics either; but you don't meet rational people with their shit together who say "Oh I was a VP at Cargill, but I just couldn't stand the idea of my tax bracket going from 34% to 36% so I quit and became an ESL teacher." Just doesn't happen.
I'm not saying people shouldn't criticize america either, because the US is full of shit same as anywhere else...it's just that these problems aren't what is wrong with anyone's life. Focus on them at the expense of your own goals and you'll never get anywhere in life...and no one will take your opinion seriously.
Gay marriage, the disposition of court cases against former financial executives, health care legislation etc. shouldn't be why anyone is specifically unhappy. They are excuses people use to cover up mean spirited or cowardly thoughts on their own part.
Thumbs up Samsara !!
No country is perfect
and the fact that we can all point out the good and points about our home countries is healthy in that it shows we actually give a damn about making them a better place.
To blindly accept what we told by our respective governments shows a lack of participation in society: sheep are happy and are easily slaughtered.
to quote Martin Neimoller:
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me."
Samsara:
"To blindly accept what we told by our respective governments shows a lack of participation in society."
Exactly.
Apparently it's OK to lament the willful ignorance and complicity of Chinese people, but if we identify the same behaviour in Western people, we are "getting worked up over nonsense".
I don't think the original poster understands what 'hypocrisy' is.
Do not confuse the CCP paid commentators with actual expats. These mouthpieces are simply here to keep us from talking about what is happening out west. And not to mention the failed rabbit up on the moon.
Englteachted:
EZ and grumpy, also jetfire and another account a new account.
I'll accept the label of 'conspiracy nut', but Conspiracy Theorist would be more PC. I also value socialism, though I guarantee my definition of the word is different from an American's understanding of the philosophy. As for coming to China; it was for my wife, not to escape conspiracy. I wasn't expecting a socialist paradise when I came over, but my low expectations weren't enough to prevent disappointment. I just created a new blog (dunno when it will be readable - it can take ages), and my quote on the subject is this: "Before I came to China, I thought corruption and power abuse was bad in the west. If and when I live in a western country once more, I will never complain about the small stuff again."
The difference is that nobody expected the freedom loving, great paradise of liberty USA to be spying and collecting on EVERYONE for NO REASON. The Chinese government at least everyone knows and is expected to do it. OP you have some serious shilling skills maybe the NSA has a position open for you. Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it.
The whole fact that the people view the guy who basically said "your government is lying to you and tracking everything you do" as some sort of super terrorist is beyond me. He caught the government and Obama himself in multiple lies to the American people about assurances and privacy. What exactly makes the US government any better than Beijing? That’s a real question to think about.
“If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.” - Samuel Adams
icnif77:
'spying and collecting on EVERYONE for NO REASON'
Don't believe, NSA does anything without REASON! Real reason is 'unearthly', so most just dismissed as 'impossible'!
Think about 'Charles Darwin'.....
Hey dude - if its true its not a "conspiracy". I think the biggest conspiracy in the world is the Federal Reserve Bank and if you do some homework you will probably agree. Even the former New York Attorney General and Governor agrees...
http://dailybail.com/home/eliot-spitzer-the-federal-reserve-is-a-ponzi-scheme-inside-t.html
I don't know, but it's kind of annoying when 7 out of 10 foreigners I meet are always complaining about the U.S. government's so-called "controlled-demolition" of the Twin Towers, among other strange things such as alien abductions. I mean, seriously... stop... you're dumb.
I'm not even a fan of our government. Just stop... before I put a bullet in my head.
Samsara:
You are hand-picking examples of irrational, unverifiable nonsense. The NSA revelations are a different matter entirely.
Being a patriot, how do you feel about them?
Hulk:
I don't like the NSA spying on the U.S. I don't give two shits if they do it to other countries. Besides, this has nothing to do with the NSA (the conspiracy nut thing). Are you in the right thread?
Our government is hurr durr... not a fan. But I'm not hand-picking... nearly every foreigner I ran into thought that way... except 2. I met one in Changsha and one in Beijing who weren't complete nutjob conspiracy theorists.
Not saying they're all like that... just the ones I ran into.
http://rt.com/news/five-eyes-online-manipulation-deception-564/
Western spy agencies build ‘cyber magicians’ to manipulate online discourse
Just move along people, NSA manipulates and participates in online conversations. OP could very well be in their employ. 50 cents per pro-NSA post, he'll be rich in no time.
Californiaz:
If you want complete government control of your life why dont you move to North Korea.
I won't be treaded on because a bunch of whiny pinko edgy teens and "muh safety" adults care dont want to be free.
expatlife26:
Yeah...i should move to north korea. Isn't that kinda like what YOU did moving to China because you were so upset about the US govt? How is such a libertarian evangelist like you okay with having to register anywhere you stay longer than 24 hrs with the police…or needing a government ID to buy even a data-only SIM card? Isn't that treading on you?
If stuff like that really bothers you so much...you'd be home trying to change it. You'd be at those protests and making your voice heard to people who can do something about it. But you aren't...because you are an ineffectual person who just needs to be angry about something.
That's why you are where you are; in a repressive society bitching about a slightly less repressive society. Because you can't get anything done.
Californiaz:
Not in China m8 but you seem pretty assblasted about this, I must have struck a nerve.
The history of world revolutions and rebellions always involve outsiders. Hitler was Austrian, Stalin was Georgian, Napoleon was Corsican, leaders of certain 1991 rebellions were abroad and came back to their country to lead them. If you exist solely within in the society you'll never broaden your world/life view.
In all fairness you seem pretty edgy regarding this topic I think you'll think differently when you grow up m8.
My comment wasn't about the NSA or JPmorgan or whatever the cause du jour happens to be.
I'm not pro-NSA I'm just anti-slacktivism.
Worry about personal ethics instead, being good to people in your daily life and carrying yourself with consideration and dignity does a hell of a lot more for the world than bitching online. Especially if you marginalize yourself by living abroad. No congressman represents a constituency of overseas Americans and your opinion is therefore disenfranchised.
You want to do something about NSA surveillance? Move back to the US and try and put something together. Make it clear to your representatives you will change your voting patterns if they don't oppose it and encourage others to do the same. It's not much...but it's something.
We're in a country where government ethics and the rule of law is virtually non existent. That doesn't mean that the US or other western countries are perfect by any stretch...but they are objectively stronger legally.
If the way the US or UK conduct themselves upsets someone so much...how can they possibly stand it here? The answer is because ultimately they don't want to do anything to change it...they just need something to be upset about. That's exactly why nothing ever changes. Jamie Dimon is a piece of shit, so is Maurice Greenberg who sued the government for not giving AIG better bailout terms. But they aren't the proximate cause of any of my current problems or issues and I'm not going to let them distract me from the pursuit of my own goals.
Expats tend to be "black sheep" in some way...if they weren't they'd be back home living a "normal" life. So no surprise they might hold some eccentric opinions. If u want to meet some real nuts try SE Asia...Thailand has some real nutcases. I read that 36% of Thailand's British expats voted BNP at the UK consulate.
O-Watson:
I don't agree with this. Yes, some times it's true that expats are 'black sheep' as you call them.. But some are just here for something new, some adventure. Why does getting up and leaving make you a black sheep?
sam239:
"Black sheep" means someone who is a bit different from the crowd. Almost every one of my family and friends from HS and uni is now married or nearly there, living in the same area, same jobs, (same boring life) etc. That's fine if it makes them happy, but it would drive me nuts to be stuck back there. So I am a "Black Sheep", a bit different from the rest. I suspect most expats here are "Black Sheep" too. Nothing negative implied by that, a "Black Sheep" just doesn't quite fit in the box.
I think you’re right about that, and theres nothing wrong with being a black sheep. What I’m taking to task here is blaming all these outside forces for personal disappointments.
Because there's a lot of morons in China. Back home I deal and mix with successful, smart individual. Lawyers, accountants, executives, artists who actually make money at it.
They know laws, they are fully up on world events and they are not fools. So, they talk about things they worry about like government spying, or how immigration is being meddled with to suit the political party in power....etc.
Then you get to China and meet some community college dropout teaching English when he isn't fall down drunk talking about how Snowden is god and the government is allowing immigration as part of a conspiracy to destroy white people.....and he has the nerve to call OTHER people stupid.
It's just some loser who couldn't compete and now tries to cut others down instead of trying to discover why he couldn't measure up.
Comical, really.
expatlife26:
Im not saying the US gov. isn't full of shit. They are.
But all these so-called libertarians you meet here, either they value freedom of speech and privacy and make choices in their lives that reflect this...or they live in a country where you legally have to register with the police if you stay at a friend's house.
They say one thing...and their actions clearly say something completely different.
Either govt surveillance isn't an issue for them at all...which it clearly isn't or they wouldn't be comfortable here, or it is and they should be at home trying to fight for it. Honestly I don't know anywhere that the government has less legal authority to spy on you than the USA. Though I'm happy to be corrected on that point.
I don't think it's fair to say that teachers are all community college dropouts, but I think that the mentality of getting publicly mad about something that your actions reveal you don't care about at all tends not to lead people to successful careers like you mentioned.
Percivile:
Behing every libertarian is a dink that won't take responsibility for his own actions. Ever met one with a job?
Shining_brow:
When did this thread become only about Americans??
What about expats from the rest of the world? Do we fall into the same category as 'college dropouts' and 'losers'??
How do you put those 'college dropouts' into the same category as the significant number of post-graduate qualified people here?
ExpatLife - you clearly know very little about the rest of the world, if you really think the USA has the least legal authority to spy on its citizens! If you take away the Chinese and Americans on this site, you'll be left with the majority of echinacities users who come from countries with less legal authority to spy on them!
Percivile:
When did I say a thing about Americans? And when did I paint every expat with that Brush? Just in my experience the kind of expats this guy is talking about fit that model. But yes you're right about the guy not understanding spying power countries have. I'm from Canada and privacy laws there are SO strict. Even the cops aren't allowed to look at your medical records without a warrant and attempts to put CCTV cameras in bad areas have been quaashed.
coineineagh:
it strikes me that you resort to personal value judgements about people when you don't like their take on socially relevant issues. in my book, that's a foul ball; point awarded to the dropout.
Percivile:
In my view you're one of those irritating idiots who foolishly thinks everyone in the world, yourself more than included, has value. Guess what? The world has a lot of useless wasters. Many live in China.
You also strike me as someone with poor comprehension skills. The OP asked a question, I answered. No, jog on.
coineineagh:
I was able to answer the OP without resorting to personal value judgements. though I acknowledge the OP question is phrased in such a way as to encourage more judgements, I stand by my decision to refrain from them. I wasn't saying it was wrong per se, but a telling sign of fallacious defense, so that speaks in favour of 'conspiracy nuts'. A point added to them by default, if you ask me. I didn't comprehend what you meant by poor comprehension skills, though. If yours are so much stronger than mine, you'll have to explain that one to me. Otherwise I'd just say it's an attempt at ad hominem attack.
Percivile:
Don't care. You're sitting here acting like a condescending teacher. You're a buffoon and no one cares what you think If you disagree with what I say, argue that, but don't strut around telling other people how they should act.
Now, go on... F$8k off.
When two people agree to do something it is a conspiracy. Two weeks ago a few teachers and I conspired to go to on trip. Surely we are not nuts. Not all conspiracies are evil. When you term it a conspiracy you are shedding a negative light on people who go against the norm by ridiculing their beliefs.
Seriously, people have different ideas then those exposed by their governments. If you believe the common held beliefs as told by governments and their media outlets of some things then I feel sorry for you. Governments lie, lie some more, and lie more on top of that.
In the USA, for a long time it was believed that the Spanish government exploded a mine inside the Maine to start a war. Upon further investigation, it was an internal explosion. Let see other lies in history: The Gulf of Tonkin, the burning of the Reichstag, the Marco-Polo Bridge incident in China, the bombing of the Liberty by Israeli jets. Those people who questioned these "facts' as first presented by their governments were also seen as nut jobs until they were proved correct.
If people argue for a "conspiracy" listen to the facts. If you disagree, what are your facts?
The twin towers crashing upon themselves is a questioning of the government that keeps going from the mouths of scientists, engineers, as well as architects and not just unqualified English teachers in China.
It is more of a patriot, of any country, to question what their government tells them. It is lazy person who does not care and just accepts what the media and the government tells them.
coineineagh:
glad i'm not the only person who finds it strange that those buildings collapsed at free-fall speed. the only 3 steel-framed building in human history known/claimed to have collapsed as a result of fire. i'm happy for people who've succeeded in using their brain to make money, but allow others the freedom to have dissenting thoughts, even if they are unpopular thoughts for your peer group.
"But all these so-called libertarians you meet here, either they value freedom of speech and privacy and make choices in their lives that reflect this...or they live in a country where you legally have to register with the police if you stay at a friend's house."
Simple, as foreigners in Asia we have less political freedom than we do at home, but more personal freedom to "live and let live" without people screwing with you. I get the impression that the "register with the police" requirement is a formality that few local cops would care about, just a leftover from earlier times that the powers-that-be keep in store. Same with all the cameras - it seems like it must be a terrible police state, but I find the authorities all over Asia generally do NOT bother you unless you are bothering them. Can't say the same for back in Farangland.
expatlife26:
yeah but who screwed with you at home?
I mean you personally...not something you saw on the news. And not something where you were breaking a law, however stupid it might be, and were hassled for it.
Border crossings, alaays takes a couple of hours in a car and am treated with suspicion, tricky questions, etc. Totally unnecessary for national security and a violation of privacy as well. Just look at the difference between the Boston and Kunming terrorism. In the former, the authorities launched a cowboy martial law crackdown, going door to door like some jackbooted thugs. In Kunming they killed or captured the terrorist scum but managed to do it without turning the city into something like an occupied Fallujah.
Anyways, you raise a good question. Why do such a high percentage of expats harbor eccentric ideas? Just a consequence of having a large number of "black sheep" or oddballs (no connotation intended) or is something else going on?
I think people speak from their hearts based upon their own personal experiences and perhaps many of us may have worked for the U.S. government ot government contractors before and knows things that most people do not. Or maybe some posters her lost everything in the 2008 financial meltdown or suffered some other injustice at the hands of government negligence or incompetence. My point is that everyone I see posting here is generally pretty honest and sincere with only a few exceptions. Maybe if we were in their shoes for a year we might not be so quick to judge people who don't agree with us.
Personally I came her to look for something (a job that I could enjoy and not feel dominated by, which I find in teaching), and not to escape anything. I am however, very much so, a conspiracy theorist. I do believe that rich conglomerations consort to further their own powerful intent, and I believe that such is the way within our monetary system and no other way is possible within such a system. Within such a system we shall always have poverty and the monopolizing of power, we shall always have the arrested development of technology, and we shall always have an injustice such as can only be born of such disparity amongst humankind. But as long as there is beer, i'm gonna stick around and party.
