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Q: Why do foreigners come to China thinking that they can change it?
China is a vastly different place from whence you came, and so the morals and rules for society are all different; many new foreigners coming to China can't accept this. In it's own way, this is okay (it's not really). It boils down to "you have an opinion/moral standard, and you're going to stick by that". Good on you, fearless laowai.
Despite all of your deep seated objects, this becomes problematic when a foreigner comes here thinking they can make a difference - good or bad.
I get that many people think that China is primitive and backwards and lawless and cultureless and unhygienic. You've all got your reasons that are right for you. Great. But being in China and implementing change is another thing.
Why do foreigners come to China thinking that they can change it? China has been around for thousands of years, people have a set way of doing things. If you're not going to let them do it and try to "school" them, they're not going to like it and in fact all Chinese aren't going to like it. It doesn't have to make sense to you for it to make sense to them.
10 years 18 weeks ago in General - Other cities
It's not a matter of being in China or not. It is a matter of wanting to make the world a better place no matter where you are.
Scandinavian:
When I see someone doing something in a less optimal way, I will always suggest doing things the easier way. In some cases, e.g. like what end to open a banana in, I wil only comment on that once, people who keep opening the bananas from the other end than where the stalk is will achieve the same result and not harm anyone in the process.
People who insist having the windows open when the A/C is on, they need to be told each time.
".....what, there is an easier way to make orange juice"
moparfan:
That's great, I admire your idealism as well as everyone else's here. I, like everyone else, have also wondered about other ways to make orange juice.
But it all depends upon the definition of "world" and "better place". We're not talking about a specific example, but it really doesn't matter; when a foreigner keeps butting in with "You don't have to use your head!" and "There's a machine that squeezes it for you", Chinese will often get upset.
Your helpful suggestions are pointing out the fallacies of their culture. You're making them lose face. Granted, losing face is sometimes the only way to get someone to change, providing it works. But the immediate result will be painful awkwardness and hostility. At that point it isnt' about being right so much as overstaying your "welcome as a visitor".
As said, you/we are all new here, but inthe grand scale China has been the same as its ever been. History doesn't say, but Marco Polo must have had said something about all the spitting way back then, and all we have now is a game for kids to play in the pool with.
Scandinavian:
Actually my dayjob is sitting and thinking about ways of lowering power consumption/CO2 emissions on a different continent by deploying new technology that would eventually also be usable in China. My goal of improving the "world" is actually thinking globally. It doesn't matter that people throw garbage on the streets in China, but these people will never get their heads out of their asses and see the bigger picture if they cannot care just a little about a few small things... like garbage on the streets.
moparfan:
I own that I didn't read in detail your examples, but then that is Homer Simpson squeezing an orange with his face.
I was talking about culturally specific things while you are talking about non-culture specific (energy conservation, correct banana eating procedures for non-blondes).
Maybe I should have specified, but being as this is eChinacities Q and A where everyone is complaining about Chinese all the time, I didn't think it was that egregious to assume this of eChinacities users.
Anyways, we all know Chinese will start picking up trash when a new government policy directs them to do so.
Scandinavian:
I am actually pretty sure that the lack of willingness to open a banana "the right way" is a sign of lack of exploring and just sticking to how things are. Fucking up the planet by having the windows open while the A/C is running is in China bound to some stupid belief that one must have fresh air all the time despite the air outside being toxic. It's a flawed logic. It does have something to do with culture although might apply in other parts of the world.
I said it all the time, I came here to change china for better. Now I say, suck it china, I am leaving your sh1t behind me and going for greener places... just suck it. do not want change, do not want better ? okay, keep it. do not export please
Nessquick:
Eat in China, Eat with caution ! 
Chopstick are very useful tool to fight the animals on the table :D
You seem to be advocating that we should have the attiude of : we can't make a difference here so why try, and that because somebody may not like you for it we shouldn't do what we feel is right. I know it is difficult in this situation (ask the Chinese) but the moment you accept those 2 attitudes is the moment all life is dragged out of you.
It's not a matter of being in China or not. It is a matter of wanting to make the world a better place no matter where you are.
Scandinavian:
When I see someone doing something in a less optimal way, I will always suggest doing things the easier way. In some cases, e.g. like what end to open a banana in, I wil only comment on that once, people who keep opening the bananas from the other end than where the stalk is will achieve the same result and not harm anyone in the process.
People who insist having the windows open when the A/C is on, they need to be told each time.
".....what, there is an easier way to make orange juice"
moparfan:
That's great, I admire your idealism as well as everyone else's here. I, like everyone else, have also wondered about other ways to make orange juice.
But it all depends upon the definition of "world" and "better place". We're not talking about a specific example, but it really doesn't matter; when a foreigner keeps butting in with "You don't have to use your head!" and "There's a machine that squeezes it for you", Chinese will often get upset.
Your helpful suggestions are pointing out the fallacies of their culture. You're making them lose face. Granted, losing face is sometimes the only way to get someone to change, providing it works. But the immediate result will be painful awkwardness and hostility. At that point it isnt' about being right so much as overstaying your "welcome as a visitor".
As said, you/we are all new here, but inthe grand scale China has been the same as its ever been. History doesn't say, but Marco Polo must have had said something about all the spitting way back then, and all we have now is a game for kids to play in the pool with.
Scandinavian:
Actually my dayjob is sitting and thinking about ways of lowering power consumption/CO2 emissions on a different continent by deploying new technology that would eventually also be usable in China. My goal of improving the "world" is actually thinking globally. It doesn't matter that people throw garbage on the streets in China, but these people will never get their heads out of their asses and see the bigger picture if they cannot care just a little about a few small things... like garbage on the streets.
moparfan:
I own that I didn't read in detail your examples, but then that is Homer Simpson squeezing an orange with his face.
I was talking about culturally specific things while you are talking about non-culture specific (energy conservation, correct banana eating procedures for non-blondes).
Maybe I should have specified, but being as this is eChinacities Q and A where everyone is complaining about Chinese all the time, I didn't think it was that egregious to assume this of eChinacities users.
Anyways, we all know Chinese will start picking up trash when a new government policy directs them to do so.
Scandinavian:
I am actually pretty sure that the lack of willingness to open a banana "the right way" is a sign of lack of exploring and just sticking to how things are. Fucking up the planet by having the windows open while the A/C is running is in China bound to some stupid belief that one must have fresh air all the time despite the air outside being toxic. It's a flawed logic. It does have something to do with culture although might apply in other parts of the world.
It took the British a full 100 years of governing and education to develop Hong Kong to where it is today.
moparfan:
I think the term you're looking for is "100 years of rule".
making a change in a country - any country - is not about changing the big things.
At home i would make small changes to make my life/the life of people around me better. i am not doing anything different here. Some of the students i encounter recognise that they want to change, so if i can help them make a positive change, i will do so.
Not to try to make a place better is defeatist.
nor would i make assumptions about what other people think about a country or about whey they are there. just because someone has a BCD does not mean they have not experienced something similar at home.
I came in China for a job that made sense for me (ie. academia), not to somehow change the place. But...
Giving up and accepting that shitty things are shitty and I can't do anything about it ? That kind of mindset would make me miserable and hate my own life. This is precisely that learned self-helplessness (http://(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness) that can suppress a civil society. I believe that China as it is nowadays is textbook example of this problem.
“China has been around for thousands of years, people have a set way of doing things.”
Oh dear.
China, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan have similar cultural heritage (Confucian ideals, history of serfdom). The latter three are now developed, democratic countries. Japan is, by most accounts, one of the most civilised societies on Earth.
The reason for Chinese people’s lack of education, lack of independent thought, and lack of social awareness is not “ancient culture”. It is the Communist Party - a regime that strips people of human dignity and self-worth, and prohibits learning. Don’t confuse that with Chinese tradition.
If only there was a part of China that Western people did interfere with, so we could have a basis for objective comparison. A region of China where ideology was shaped by Western countries and not the Communist Party…
HONG KONG
Hong Kong people are bright, open-minded, forward-thinking, independent, sophisticated, self-aware, socially conscious, helpful to strangers, and switched on about politics. They despise national myths, are lucid about their country’s past, and value informed opinion (in contrast to China’s self-assured ignorance). How did this amazing dichotomy come about? Western interference. Thanks to its history of colonial exploitation, Hong Kong has Constitutional Law, which allows people to think and speak freely, and regardless of their social status, be treated like humans.
Mainland China became the way it is due to cultural/educational/economic/environmental rape by the Communist Party, not due to “5000 years of history”. Because of the ideological confines within which they live, mainland Chinese people cannot reflect lucidly on their history, or come to terms with their present situation.
The Communist Party cripples people’s minds (beginning in early childhood), strips people of the desire to learn or understand anything, subjects people to squalid conditions, and punishes people hard when they stand up for themselves. And your answer is “Why be so critical?”
DrMonkey:
(Disclaimer : I'm no historian and will probably be inaccurate on various points. Critics are welcome)
I would say blaming the Communist Party for all the current learned self-helplessness is inaccurate. The KMT under Chiang Kai-Sheck was working along the same lines, and the CCP nowadays is roughly equivalent to that vintage KMT. What the CCP added to the already shitty KMT legacy that was their awful blunders of epic proportions and awful repression in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Just like the vintage KMT, the CCP just exploited (I think, just partially conscientiously) the existing learned self-helplessness as a tool of government. Reading Lu Xun tends to make thing that it actually predate the KMT era.
Samsara:
Had the KMT gone on ruling, they may well have turned out just as bad (both parties were being given material aid and political instructions by Stalin). I personally don't think that any given dictatorship would have ended up killing its 'class enemies' (teachers, for example) in the tens of millions, enforcing 'economic policies' that killed tens of millions more, or utterly and intentionally destroying the country's cultural history.
The KMT went on to institute political reforms in Taiwan over the next few decades, eventually resulting in democracy. The Communist Party went in the opposite direction.
Nations can overcome their cultural history and bad political systems - Taiwan, Japan and South Korea have all done so. Active criticism is necessary in the process.
Scandinavian:
Blaming the CCP or blaming communism as an ideology for lack of initiative and responsibility might not be as correct in my mind as blaming the fact that the government is not elected.
belle_watson:
Japan civilized? Perhaps the veneer of it all, yes, the obsequious politeness, the anal-retentive timeliness, yes, indeed,
but it is the only country in the world where I have been assaulted on the subway, where I had to call the police to have them remove a drunken neighbor, etc., etc.
An example of someone doing a little more.
http://www.deltabridges.com/news/zhuhai-news/better-bicyclers-thank-their-teacher
I don't know the guy, but hats off for what he is doing.
DrMonkey:
Errr, been there, done that. I tried for 3 months to somehow bring some order in the bike parking of my university. People would park their bikes at the entrance of the bike, parking, making the whole bike parking unusable. In turn, people would park their bikes in the middle of way, blocking cars, walkers, etc.
I tried
* Moving the offending bikes every day and adding a sticker on them, with in Chinese "Don't behave like a pig : don't park on the entrance of the bike parking, actually park your bike'
* Same, but flipping upside-down the offending bike on top of that
* Talking with the offenders.
None of this worked.
Scandinavian:
Oooh. Where did you get the "Don't behave like a pig" I need a million of them for cars parked on zebra-crossings....
We still need to put in perspective the population factor, after all, China does have the world's largest population and it's hard to judge just how well or our home countries would be run if they had 1.5 billion bodies in them. Some suggest the simple fact that the government is able to grow, harvest, feed, and provide enough food for 1.5 billion an accomplishment by itself.
Could you imagine a United States with 1.5 billion people? -- Think of all the guns...
moparfan:
I hear this excuse all the time. "It's too big!"
But about the topic at hand, if China's massive population is a problem, then there's a definite solution to this problem: don't be such a big country. Make China into several smaller, more manageable countries.
I'm not advocating it, but it always shuts people up fast.
Iron_Monkey:
<sarcasm>Wow! I never thought the solution was so easy! They just need to break China up into several smaller more manageable countries. That's totally the easiest way.</sarcasm>
We're talking about China you know? A country that can't even divide time into zones.
ambivalentmace:
chinese always think foreigners want to divide the country, i always tell them you are asking the wrong question, can a country work with 1.5 billion people is not the question, the question is how many people is to much for a country to feed and keep a stable government and that answer, they will never give you. it requires some critical thinking and that does not exist.
I also had high hopes to make a difference here in China by way of teaching, but since have realized that it is pretty much for naught. Once I spoke to a high ranking [former] government official and he agreed that many ways of Chinese culture and education should be changed and that foreign teachers can facilitate different ways of thinking.
What I still find baffling is that the Chinese people expect all foreigners to know their rules of behavior and follow them while in their country. All good and fine, but when Chinese go to other countries they still behave in THEIR ways saying 'it is our Chinese way'. So, people in their own country should adjust and accept the Chinese cultural differences. Why these double standards?
PVG-YXE:
The chinese education really needs to be improved, I still remember when i was in primary and high school, my Chinese teachers ask students to remember the ideals
of articles that can be tested on the exams. We were not supposed to write ‘ideals’ concluded from the articles other than the teachers' standard answers...
That is true.Many chinese people want others to be like them, want other people to have the same ideas with them. But at least i'm not. China is not a immigration country, so...... sorry.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink. Accept others for who they are. If you want to change something or someone, be a leader. Lead by example not criticism. Maintain your own moral compass, stick to your ideals and be an unwavering example for others to follow....if they choose.
I dont like this foreigner view that some foreigners are coming here to change china for the better. This place is messed up and we are not getting pissed off at people and pushing new ideas. Chinese agree that these things we hate need to be changed and the chinese government spends millions on ad campaigns trying to improve these behaviours. Whether you read chinese or not im sure we have seen these two characters EVERYWHERE 文明 it means civilized. And everywhere you look youll see signs begging people not to stand on the toilets in starbucks, or please please dont sit there playing your phone pretending you didnt notice the 9 month along pregnant woman after you pushed over a relic of a man to get that seat. These are things being pushed way harder by the highers ups then a few foreigners could ever do. So instead of thinking of us as foreigners trying to change china, you can consider us chinese soldiers fighting the good fight for civility. LONG LIVE 文明!!!!
Samsara:
So China's government --- the one that mis-educates children about history to cover up its own misdeeds, steals billions of dollars from charities, spends tax money on prostitutes, gifts and expensive banquets, and imprisons people for suggesting that things need to change --- is doing its best to make China a better place by PUTTING UP SOME POSTERS?
Great.
mike695ca:
im not saying any of it is working. Im just saying that foreigners are complaining and " trying to change" the exact same things that china is trying to change as we speak. We arent trying to change china at all. We just get frustrated when they cant even follow their own rules
moparfan:
Best comment is the one above this one. I don't necessarily agree, but you are wise in your ways, Yoda.
Nessquick:
Samsara, I would like to give you some milions thumbs up 
I let my son go to the driver of the small bus, which is running from metro station to our xiaoqu gate, and talk to the driver : " Please do not keep open engine while you wait here. zit make the air so dirty" The driver know him very well, but because of " face keeping" played the " what ? i dont understand"
While all the people in the bus looked surprised and amazed, about what the 3 year old boy can say, the engine continue running 12hrs a day... there are some 20-30 minutes stops between round-run, when the door are open, AC open, and of course, engine running....
Every pucking day
Why come here to give them lessons? What about the Serenity Prayer, since this Board seems to be replete with born-again Christians of all shades....
I don't change what I can't change. I try to lead by example. I admit my faults and try not to see the faults in others if I can. I take each day at a time and thank the Good Lord that I have just had another day.
