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Q: Why don't Chinese people know how to properly run a language school?
Big boss came from Shanghai. Was disastisfied and fired some of the senior employees. This is the 3rd time in 2 months this has happened. What he doesn't realize is that it's not the employees who are the problem. It's the entire system the company has built itself on. I hear many schools are like this. What's the deal?
12 years 16 weeks ago in Business & Jobs - China
its not only language school, all the school over china are similar.. their pedagogy is just copied or borrowed from a very old system of education, they don't have education reforms at all.. except for a few schools... everything is decided by their ministry of education, they have to adhere to it or they have to close down their school.
By the way, schools in china are administrative mostly.....
Because the schools here, like in the rest of the world, tend to be set up by people after a quick buck (or kuai), and not by teachers who actually know what they're doing! So, they have no real interest in educating students. Which means, all they look at is bottom line figures (ie, personal profit). If you can teach 10 students, who all pay (say) 500RMB each per hour... then why not teach 12.. or 16... or 50? After all, it's more money!!! (and who cares if the quality of education goes down the drain??)
Also, those people setting up the school have little or no experience in running an effective business or operation, so have no idea on how things should really be done to achieve a great success (see the "quick buck" above).
If you really care, tell this boss from Shanghai what they're doing wrong. If they fire you, move on!
because they only think about how much money they can exploit from their students and not how much they can teach them.
Because they are Chinese and have no business sence , I f they thought more about employing native speakers to help them they could have a could business right now to most its just a money machine they dont really care abut students education
To the above-poster, I know a great many native speakers in China who have precisley no business sense at all. Many of them were flops in their own respective countries and they come to China to somehow enhance their own values with the "native-speaker bit".
Don't kid yourself, mrpopular above, many of the Chinese are astute, astute business people. Just look at Chinese business, the Chinese economy, the little shops that probably surround you, etc., etc. This is a commercial power and it was a commercial power until the Qing Dynasty imploded and the British set about dismantling the country.
That being said, LTC's are just another business product. Some succeed and others fail, often for reasons that confound us Westerners. Here in China, more often than not, a business can survive and thrive based upon "relationships" whereas in the West, relationships in business are hardly of any matter.
So let's not generalize about what Chinese language training centers fail. When I pick up the Western newspapers, all I read about (online these days) is in what a financial morass the West finds itself, with Britain and American leading the pack into the morass.
Let's try to learn what we can from China -- they must be doing something right around here. 60 years ago this was a fourth world country, not even a third world, and now, according to Western statistics, it is on its way to becoming the new economic superpower. By all standards, it is already the banker of last resort for most of the West, particularly the US.
giadrosich:
While I would agree with 99.9% of what you posted, in many ways, the Chinese economy has been built upon faulty business practices. Corruption, under-handed lending practices, government manipulation of markets (both domestic and international), and nepotism are just a few problems which will point to an unsustainable level of economic growth. Yes, the Chinese are doing something right...for now, but it won't last. I hope they continue to prosper and people here get a better life, but based upon the leading indicators and the accepted cultural attraction to some of the problems listed above, one has to be realistic and understand that the "house of cards" is tilting at an alarming rate. Admittedly, I am not an economist, but I do read from quite a few sources on a daily basis, and most people who have made a life time in the related subjects are all pointing to the same conclusion. Be that as it may, there are many successful businesses that are operated by legitimate and bona fide practices, and these are the ones that will continue to grow and enlarge. Whether or not there are enough to keep the Chinese economy afloat, only time will tell.
MrTibbles:
All China has been doing is manufacturing cheap goods for the west. That's why it's making so much money. As the west is having troubles, they are not buying as much stuff. Not sure if you've noticed, but there are factories closing down left and right here in China. No demand = no business = NO MONEY. Also, wages increase in China as the quality of life improves = less money for corporations = they pack up and are leaving to cheaper manufacturing bases (Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, India) The vast majority of China's wealth (over 80%) is based on manufacturing and export goods. Contrary to idiots on the news, this is not a sustainable economy that will overtake the US. The "projected rates" have already fallen. China was down over 10% in December because less people are buying their exports (major buyer - the US). The crap economy hasn't hit here...yet. One of the benefits of currency manipulation. But it will. So as for "doing something right", well, I can make a list of people and companies that have been lied to, cheated, and screwed over doing business here, simply because they "don't understand Chinese culture". This is actually doing something WRONG, and sooner or later it will come back to bite them in the ass.
nevermind:
By the way, Chinese have crap for business sense. That's why they all run corner stores back home. They only do well here cause it's all about pinching pennies and screwing people over due to a lack of laws. Put them in an environment where they have to think, and they're screwed. Also, the British didn't dismantle a thing, or are you now going to give them credit for overthrowing the dynasty?
I have been in the teaching business in China now 10 years, and the Chinese don't get it. It is like a big black cloud that surrounds them, and they believe in this stability ideal. Stability to what, given their huge unemployment problems.
Schools are controlled by the government, and they have very poor quality environments, That is too many students to really teach.
They need to promote English in China, by having and recognizing the serious students, and have them placed together in the same class environment.
Tell the kids who don't want to study to please leave, because they disrupt the class. The class size needs to be small. Many small classes, creates many teaching opportunities. Schools that think they need to have large classes need to think differently about this. One big class of 30-35 students can make 6-7 small classes. This means more employed English teachers.
This means faster results in level proficiency, and solves an employment problem, while promoting the English curriculum. In order for teachers to maintain their jobs, they need to have their students passing the exams.
This would also produce the need for more congenial classrooms, and bathrooms that have a real toilet and sink, instead of a hole in the floor and a dripping tap into a bucket.
Students could also be catered to like in the restaurants, which would create more chef jobs, and waitress jobs, to go toward paying their education expenses. After class is Lunch that is served, and students return to their dorms for a rest. And the same for dinner time.
Of course time would be used for sporting activities and outside activities, for students leisure and exercise.
The teachers organize the classes, and the school administration organizes the teachers in morning meetings, for any concerns of importance.
I have been actively doing this myself, after working at a Private School here, but the bosses do not listen to advice. So I opened my own studio and only allow max 5 per class hour time, and I make as much money as I do in teaching 500 kids a week in the crowded classrooms. And I only have the evening hours to work with. That is from 6-7, and 7-8. I have some who are asking for a new slot 8-9. But I am only one person.
I think I am right, and China Education is going to change to this type of small class size arrangement, for the sake of jobs, and better quality education.
The next economic explosion of growth will be this new Educational Setup.
And I think it's good, for China, the students, teachers, and many others in the Education Business.
Most schools are for-profit businesses. The main concern of these places is not to teach children, but to make the parents happy so they shell out more money. Happy kids, happy parents = continued cash flow. Education is secondary when it comes to English teaching.
Parents are willing to pay more for a native speaker (especially one that looks like they come from an English speaking laowai land, ie white).
Try your best to teach the kids, but understand that most foreign teachers here in China (not all of you of course) are nothing more than marketing tools to charge higher tuition fees.
As for knowing how to run a school, it's always going to be in conflict because they aren't running schools, they're running a business to generate money and their concerns have nothing to do with quality education.
This is never going to change in China unless there are some radical changes to gov't policy. That's not going to happen. Kids in schools here are taught how to pass a specific test, not learn life knowledge.
I can't even begin to tell you how many people I've met with 4 year college degrees that know absolutely nothing about their chosen fields.
kchur:
I think I mentioned this a few, but I used to work with a full army of Chinese IT professionals who didn't know what an email address was, and who suggested I use MSN instead, because it was "international QQ". And when I was configuring a simple LAMP on a deadline, they demanded I use windows XP because it was more popular in China. Swear to god.
Jermano:
So what you are saying is that Schools really aren't about education at all. Not only in China but also in the USA. It is all about Business in generating money. And so what happens when people are not happy anymore, because the truth nips them in the seat of their pants? I mean when considering people get degrees they are suppose to know something, and clearly they don't, so what happens? I wrote this article a few yeas ago. With the hope that with all the problems in the world, we may find our way out of being uneducated. http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/the-fraud-of-american-university-accreditation/question-1930565/ http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/students-need-not-take-out-loans-anymore-for-education/question-2247811/
There are many reasons for this imho. The employees themselves could have gotten the job because they merely knew how to speak English somewhat or the foreign language they teach. However, knowing how to speak a language does not particularly make that person qualified if they don't have the necessary training then it should reflect in their work. Because of this many of the training centers are ignorant imo to the extent that whatever they say is 'right'. That's the problem...right there! That's a huge problem for any language teaching.
Jermano:
Your comment reflects indoctrination and what you think is proper training. The Military is the perfect example of indoctrinated brainwashing.
MissA:
I don't know why this got so many thumbs down, it seems pretty sensible to me. To just throw people with no understanding of classroom management, language acquisition, grammar or Chinese learners' needs into a classroom, and hope for the best... surely that isn't exactly best industry practice.
MissA:
I don't know why this got so many thumbs down, it seems pretty sensible to me. To just throw people with no understanding of classroom management, language acquisition, grammar or Chinese learners' needs into a classroom, and hope for the best... surely that isn't exactly best industry practice.
Traveler:
It's not often I will agree with Mattaya, but I gave you a thumbs up because you actually made sense for once. @MissA: There are a very small group here, the self-appointed site guardians, who attack and thumbs down the majority who don't agree with them.
Shining_brow:
MissA, Mattaya gets thumbs down because s/he thumbs down many other posts by other people, regardless of the response - to the point it seems personal (or, at least, we strongly suspect it's Mattaya). I've posted responses that have been intelligent, reasonable, and in no way offensive, and anyone with half a brain will see is correct... but still had thumbs down... with no comment to justify why.. So, it's just people getting their own back! :)
Traveler:
Exactly. The votes by this minority are based on personal likes and dislikes, not the objective value of the post. The comments and personal attacks by the same people are based on the same subjective criteria. Sort of like primary school kids ganging up on one other kid - then another, then another... :-)
Why don’t Chinese people know how to properly run a language school?
The writer who compliments the Chinese on achievement and thinks we may underestimate the business owners, is correct to some degree. Those who criticize current methods are correct, to some degree. But before anyone thinks they know the “correct way,” we need have a lot more conversation about specifics with regard to educational goals and business goals. These are two very different sets of goals, and what is the proper blend for any school needs a lot of definition work.
First of all, the wording of this question implies that there is “a” “Proper” way to run a language school in China. Perhaps the author of the question has some experience in running a language school someplace other than China, and thinks they know “the” correct way. That’s a mistake in perception and a false paradigm. From a business perspective, it is also narrow minded, and short sighted.
There are many different kinds, sizes, and shapes of English schools in China. Most of them are as different as day-and-night. They have a huge variety of M.O.’s and varying degrees of success and/or failure. So, let’s be as practical and logical as we can. The real question that should be asked is “what does a school want to accomplish, and what is their target market. The purposes and markets are also varied.
The only “proper” way to ask the original question is to ask it on a school-by-school basis. That is, “Why don’t the Chinese school owners know how to properly run “their” language school?” (which assumes that they are not achieving what they set out to achieve)
Or, perhaps the author is really asking “Shouldn’t there be a standard metric of success in terms of the students achieving English proficiency?” If this is the question, then we need to further define it…….
What are the goals of the students? Oral fluency for travel? Technical proficiency for education? Effective business skills? The list could go on, but the answer to how to manage a school to achieve any of these goals is different. The class format “should be” different for each. The teacher qualifications “should be” different for each. That also goes for marketing, classroom rules, size of class, etc. etc.
Immersion is not the answer for everyone. Oral conversation is not the answer for everyone. Mixing age groups will not work for everyone, but may work for some. Dormitories may be needed for some, but not for everyone. Six months of day long classes, operating like a university or live-in High School is not right for all of them. Disciplining business focused adults in the same way you would a middle-school student is obviously not effective. One-on-one tutoring is not right for everyone, or for every goal.
With regard to business purpose, more than anything it depends on what the “investor of capital” wants to achieve. If they want to grab a large corner of a specific market, they should focus on marketing, class room configurations, teacher qualifications, and management styles that fit their goal. One thing is for sure, if a school owner wants to be the end-all of every market, and succeed with all age groups, it’s going to take a HUGE investment, and they had better clearly define and separate their programs in order to offer the differing products that each age group and other classification demands, or they will fail.
Different English markets can have opposing interest and demands, and to mix them only diminishes the effectiveness of your product. And somewhere along the line you will offend one group to satisfy another. And the news of offenses and poor service will spread throughout all the markets you are trying to serve. Sooner or later, you will pay the price for it.
Finally, because technical English training schools are at heart “for-profit” businesses, rather than educational institutions, many of them fall into a business paradigm that hurts many companies in the world, regardless of their national origin. They are “marketing driven” vs. “service driven” and this is always a problem. To put it plainly, it’s a huge problem when marketing people make glowing promises that the operations side of the business cannot deliver. And the truth is that when a marketing type is “in heat’ over a new customer, they rarely stop to ask the operations side, “can we do this?” Who gets hurt by this? First, the customer. Second, the reputation of the business.
So, for purpose of answering this question, in this venue, suffice it to say…. If someone wants to have a real conversation about how a technical English program should or should-not be managed, the question needs to get a whole lot more specific.
beaufortninja:
Completely missed the point of the question but nice try. I made no mention of education or business. I was talking about management which you would have known it you made an effort to read the OP in its entirety.
981977405:
This was an extremely excellent post. I don't think that you missed the purpose -- it's just that you didn't feed into the anti-China hysteria that prevails among a certain group around here.
Traveler:
Shame on you Jerry. You didn't give the desired answer, so it was dismissed as irrelevant.
981977405:
It's the Gang of Three or of Four on the loose again. I am 100% convinced that one person on this board, who it not Mattaya, has multiple personalities on this Board and perhaps even in real life.
Shining_brow:
Right.....while this post is obviously thought out, and quite reasonable and logical, it does miss an important point! Firstly, ALL businesses are there to make money. The more, the better. The problem is, many business owners don't actually understand that - they don''t understand that making a quick buck now loses a lot of bucks later. And, in this respect, Jerry only briefly touched on - reputation. Many businesses here care less for their reputation than they do for the quick bit of cash it garners in the here and now. As you said, they are not in the business of teaching - they're in the business of making money. So, the OP's question then really becomes - why don't businesses here know anything about teaching.... because they don't care about teaching. It's that simple! Don't worry 981, it's not just in China... I've been through a few mickey-mouse schools with the same problems back in my home country! Anyone who has done an online or weekend TESOL course has been bitten by the same insect. What Jerry almost nailed, but unfortunately danced around, is that the business operators, admin, marketing dept AND the teachers NEED TO TALK TO EACH OTHER in order to achieve the best results for ALL concerned. But, business is business, and business owners are business owners (all over the world), and so, they think they always know better than anyone else around them - and especially know much much more than anyone they employ!!! So, Jerry, you get thumbs down for (as Beaufort said) missing the point of the OP - what type of school is completely irrelevant!
beaufortninja:
Another dick comment from Traveler. I didn't accept his perfect wisdom and so now he tries to antagonize me on every post. What a big boy he is.
Most language schools (and possibly Chinese schools in general) are lacking three things. First, the management don't know much about education. Second, they have students who don't know how to learn. Third, they have fake teachers who don't know how to teach.
So sorry BNinja. I know you will dismiss this as pointless, because it is not the answer you wanted, but the fake teachers and employees are a large part of the problem. Perhaps the major part.
Please commence your personal attacks now.
Traveler:
No. I blame the fake teachers mostly. The students are the result of the system, and go to the schools in good faith looking for help. The fake teachers, and the schools, intentionally deceive the students.
981977405:
I agree, Traveler, the fake teachers for sure particularly the less-than-mentally-stable ones, the less-than-sober-ones, etc.,etc, and so forth and so on. Good post, Traveler.
Shining_brow:
Personal attack..... Ok, no, the problem, while obviously addresses PART of the problem, is not THE problem. THE problem comes down to - why are there fake teachers and fake students? Students? Because they've been told that they all need English to do well in the world - a world which China wants to be a part of. And so, parents demand that their child learns English, and the government demands that all students learn English. So, problem, but not easy to solve! Fake teachers? That's really a problem stemming from poor regulation and legislation from the government. Does Europe have this problem? Does Australia, the UK, Canada? Not nearly so much... because we have accreditation and auditing processes that require all teachers, and teaching schools, uphold certain standards. China doesn't have that (or, if it does, it's too easy to get around, what will all the corruption going on). Does it always work? Hell no! I went to a place that hired someone to teach a subject that he only 'learned' the semester (or 2) before! All because he had the nationally recognised accreditation for teaching... what subject didn't matter! But, in Australia, that's an exception, not the norm... in China, it's standard practice! (hence why having a degree and a dodgey ESL course is sufficient to be allowed to teach). If the government regulated it better, so only qualified teachers (ie, degree in English language, or teaching, or similar, or at least min of a CELTA equivalent plus experience), then that problem (if enforced) would disappear. And, you'd still have the same problem of lousy language schools operating.... there are schools out there that have fantastic students, and fantastic teachers, that still will go down the drain because management don't know what they're doing!
981977405:
The shammest operations of all the shammest operations that I have seen in China have been GAC centers set up and run by certain Australian entities that list themselves as college or something in your country. One in particular was an absolute hollow front because when one researched oh-so-little, one could learn that this Australian operation was just a post office box drop operation and that somehow, somehow, they had "acquired" the name of a school in Australia that had closed, a Catholic college I think. It charged the students a lot of money for these Australian-regulated courses, as you say, which were simply bunk, and the student were expected to matriculate into Australian universities (they were already university students here). In the end, they only received an Australian high school diploma EQUIVALENT or whatever you call it down under. Some of them did eventually by the Grace of God matriculate into lower-run Australian universities, the money-grubbing-from-the-foreigner kind, and they were totally, and perfectly, underprepared and underdeveloped. So sorry guy but lack of regulation here, for sure, perhaps but blatant money grabbing by Oz to a much higher degree. The students here paid exorbitantly high tuition for this program which was in all reality just smoke-and-mirrors. So please save me the speeches about how well-regulated things are in Australia. Perhaps yes, perhaps no.
Traveler:
GAC has it's headquarters in USA, and has been running for over fifty years. While the award it offers is an Australian accredited award, the main benefit of the award is for entry into some of the lower level US universities. The award gained in Australia is Certificate Level IV, which is one step below a Diploma. It is sufficient to obtain a student visa, and credit transfer of four subjects (one semester full time) at many Australian universities. However, a larger number of universities in the US offer credit transfer of one complete year of full time study. It is the equivalent of the USA's ACT for college entrance. You are right in saying that unscrupulous operators from Australia exploit the students with the Australian awards. The way they do it is that GAC, as example, sell a license to use the program to an Australian agent in Hong Kong. The Australian/HK agent then uses a Chinese agent to distribute it. The Chinese agent then convinces schools that everything is OK, because of the Australian standards. The Chinese agent will recruit teachers who satisfy Australian standards, and send their qualifications to the Australian accreditation council for approval. In some cases, where the Australians are paying particular attention to fraud, they will actually hire the teacher for a short time. We have all seen those ads that demand you send copies of your passport and degrees to the agent, then you hear nothing more from them. Guess what they are being used for. However, they will generally hire a different teacher, while still telling the Australians they have hired the qualified teacher. Australian authorities are limited in their ability to check on this personally. Generally, it is a teacher who doesn't have the qualifications required that is hired, or a fake teacher, because they will work for less money. Last year, the Australian Government cracked down on these practices, and forced many of these shoddy Australian schools into bankruptcy, or closed them down permanently for such practices. It is believed about 100 "schools" suffered this fate. They are very similar to the Chinese language schools. However, that hasn't stopped the Chinese agents from continuing to operate in China, promising an award from a school that no longer exists. many fake teachers know this is the case, but continue to work for the schools, knowing they are fakes. GAC has come under increasing pressure to be more accountable for the delivery of its course in China, and other countries. There are moves to introduce stronger legislation for academic fraud for people who issue or assist in the issuing of fake awards in China (meaning the fake teachers). These awards are often used for immigration fraud, but are also considered academic fraud, as they purport to be an Australian Government accredited award. Many of the operators of such schools have reportedly gone to the UK, who are apparently also taking measures to address it. Combined with the new Chinese requirements for teachers to be granted work permits, it would appear that China is working with other countries to address a very real and serious problem.
beaufortninja:
Again, Traveler assumes the problem with the school is the teachers (which I mentioned nothing about the quality of education at this school so that right there is a logic fail on traveler's part. You're supposed to be smart aren't you?) The people that keep getting fired are in HR, Marketing and Course Consulting. Any other misguided thoughts, Traveler?
Traveler:
Perhaps if you had clarified who the employees were in the question, or corrected it when so many others mentioned about the teachers, then it would be easier. Instead, you just make it up as you go along, as usual. It is clear from your writings that you are not happy with teaching in China, and reject anybody's opinions. Instead, you come on here looking for people to agree with you. That all China should change to the way you want things to be done. I seem to recall you mentioned something about having studied art or something trendy, but couldn't find success with it in your home state of Texas. Forgive me if I am wrong, as it is hard to know what is truth with some people on this forum. It seems you are also not finding what you want with teaching in China. You seem to have a lot of difficulty, and reject any advice from real teachers about how to make things easier. Instead, you use the exact same phrases and terminology as other members of the lunatic fringe on here. The word crackpot seems to be used regularly by both you and another aggressive poster here, to emotively reject anybody that doesn't 100% support your aggression towards the students. You also add things to the story later, to try to give yourself credibility, just as several other posters here do. You must adapt to the students needs; they don't have to adapt to your expectations. Everybody knows that the fake teachers have to accept the poor jobs in language schools. Because you are a fake, you must accept the terrible work environment. If you don't like it, leave, and find something better. We all welcome people who come here and genuinely seek advice. But you, and other frustrated souls in China, just seek reassurance that it is not your fault. It is, in most part, the fault of fake teachers with attitudes like yours, that work for almost slave labour conditions. The students know what you are, and what the schools force you to do, and treat you with the disrespect they believe you deserve. While a lot of the blame also goes to the school owners, with fake teachers like you, ready to abandon all principles just to stay in China, the schools will continue to exploit both students and foreigners alike. Without fake teachers, there would be no shoddy language schools.
beaufortninja:
Perhaps if you weren’t so eager to let everyone know how qualified or educated or whatever you were then you wouldn’t have wasted both of our time with this pointless argument. You claim to be so much more educated and experienced and yet you’ve shown everyone how petty you truly are, in just about every post you’ve made. Congrats. And where did I ever say that I hadn’t found success in my field of study? No where. Pushing your previous experiences on me? You seem awfully bitter. I was making a lot more money but moved to China for personal reasons which you aren't priveleged enough to know about. And nope, not from Texas. Nice try. And it’s obvious you’ve never read any of my posts other than the ones you keep trying to antagonize me on. So that’s a fail on your part. I’m actually not that frustrated. That’s your accusation, not mine. I live a comfortable life and make more money than people just as, if not more qualified than you. Stop trying to imprint your true feelings on me. Personal attacks with no substance like the ones you just threw at me are hilarious and petty and shows everyone here what you really are. A fraud and thin skinned baby who goes into a rage when someone doesn’t automatically accept your words. I won’t waste anymore of my time on you. Happy New Year!
Traveler:
BNinja. Interesting, J. I have run across your sites before, on Blogspot, Flickr and others. They all tell a very different story to the one you have just spun here. Forgive me. I don't know why I said Texas. Beaufort, South Carolina, of course. I am quite happy to share my experiences, and help you adapt to your new life here in China. So are most others on this site. But attacking the more experienced because you don't get your own way isn't going to make the culture shock any easier.
981977405:
Traveler, some really, really lucid posts here. Thank you for the detailed information. Sensible, well-written.
If they could run properly then they would no more called chinese and westerners were not required in china.......jst b happy that chinese system is a mess.......
Language schools the world over are a scam, in Vancouver a few years back the government shut down 84 scam language schools.
Traveler:
It seems like Canada, Australia and UK are all closing down bogus schools. Are they also closing them down in the USA?
981977405:
The BC government shut down these 84 schools and then the bogus teachers from these bogus 84 schools all flew off to China to become ESL teachers, much to the detriment of everyone, including many of us on this Board.
nevermind:
Actually, I didn't want to say it cause you'd make an issue out of it, but most of the schools were actually begun by Chinese people and meant to cater to Chinese students. So, you shouldn't have opened your mouth. Just shows the Chinese spread their shifty business practices abroad.
All that should matter is if the students can speak and understand english which doesn't seem to be a priority at most schools.
