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Q: Why is it necessary to be so strict with classes in China?
I've been here two years now.
I taught in a high school in Hunan, a university in Hebei and now a primary school.
In all of my classes I've found that I must be very strict and it's always necessary to stop my lessons to make students behave themselves.
Do you think the cause of this is the fact that Chinese parents are always working so they never have time to teach their children how to be civilised?
It is understandable in a primary school to have to discipline children, but not every three minutes.
It is even more bizarre to have to tell a twenty year old man to have to put down his cellphone and listen. If this happened in a western university, the rest of the class would look at him like he was an irresponsible moron. In China, they think it's perfectly normal for huge swathes of the population to be practically useless, it seems.
Can anyone explain this phenomenon of mass irresponsibility?
9 years 27 weeks ago in Teaching & Learning - China
It's a daily battle mate. I'm at a middle school in an area full of migrant families and the benefits of staying outweigh the alternative. I'm completely in charge of myself and my schedule is a winner.
But most of the students are completely wasting their time and mine and I can't do anything to change that. They have zero interest in English and are not encouraged by anyone else to develop an interest.
In all honesty English is of no practical use to 95% of Chinese people and I think it should be dropped as a compulsory subject. Shouldn't be included in that farce they call Gaokao either.
But that said, I have some wonderful students that I no doubt help tremendously. And because they are good students they in turn are helping me. I continue to teach purely because of them.
The barrier for them achieving their potential though is that most of their peers are too busy disrupting the class for them to get a fair go.
I must spend 75% of the class asking, very politely, of course, for the non contributors to please please please... shut the fuk up!
Spiderboenz:
Who says that you HAVE to be polite? Maybe this only works with highschoolers, but I have found that if I (playfully) make fun of class disruptions near the begining of a class period, the rest behave the whole time. But maybe migrant kids behave differently.
Are they told that foreigners are stupid/lazy/irresponsible by certain elements and as a result will go into lessons with a shit attitude?
Eorthisio:
They are, in my previous jobs I caught (and not only once) Chinese coworkers openly telling to pupils that I am not a "real teacher" and that it's okay to have fun during my class because I can't punish them or give them bad marks.
This for no reason but jealousy, I was earning 4 or 5 times their salary for half the number of classes they have, and all of them were around 40 while I was 22-23 during that academic year.
I had the same experience when teaching IT topics to 20-something years old students.
* I had to ask them to not use their mobile phone.
* They had troubles to follow simple guidelines like "name the archive with your home work with XXX-homework-3.zip, with XXX being your student ID"
* During tutoring sessions, I have to ask them to stop sleeping and actually work
* I had to ask them to stop chatting in the middle of a lecture. All the time. Eventually, I used strong-arm tactics (shaming the stronger heads, put some students out of the class in the middle of a lecture) and I got discipline. And better grades...
There's a reality-show my wife watches on Hunan TV, which follows a class of kids. They have AWFUL disciplines and self-control issues. So yeah, kids and young people seems to have discipline issues.
Why ? I feel parents are very lenient. If a kid does something wrong, (s)he rarely have to bear the responsibility of its fault, "(s)he is just a kid". Same with teachers. Being very emotional about anything is accepted and considered normal. Self-control is seen an alien thing, delayed satisfaction is not learned. If a kid want something, people will drop what they do and run around in a frenzy to provide. It might seems as generous, but that's give a kid an inflated ego and the sensation to be the centre of the world. In the other end, kids don't do much sport, don't do much things by themselves, without adult supervision. So the kids have a fragile inflated ego (I'm the centre of the world, and I'm always afraid of loosing the attention of others), with poor self-control (I can't tame my immediate needs).
laowaigentleman:
My apartment complex has a gym which I use in the evenings. This seems to be a peak time for entire families to come in with their kids.
The gym equipment is very expensive and is made up of metallic moving parts. The parents and grandparents of the kids don't seem to ever tell the kids not to touch or be careful etc.
In fact, they seem to find their behaviour amusing.
Many of the older generation seem to be children themselves.
One kid ran under my arms as I was lifting weights. I'll bet you if I accidentally sconned the silly bastard his guardians would have blamed me.
On another occasion a large group of kids came in on rollerskates with those ridiculous blinking lights on them. Some of the kids were actually standing on the treadmill in them while their fat old peasant grandmother sat on the bench about five other people clearly wanted to use and giggled away like an imbecile.
They're not cultivating the finest clay, are they? They've no business bitching about the end result if their kid ends up in a shitty job one day.
DrMonkey:
Exactly. It's considered completely normal that kids can ignore everything around them. They don't have to consider others, and you would be a monster to ask for this. Then, you look at the adults, who seems to be oblivious to anything not happening just in front of their eyes, and that does not relate to their immediate goal. Yep, they grew up without ever having to give a shit to what happen around. That double as a protection mechanism to not see the ugly things.
Eorthisio:
Ahhhh, gyms in China. Kids running around and grandparents sitting on benches as if it was a park if you go there after 5pm. Useless idiots with self-esteem issues trying to keep up with that laowai, except they can't and give up on whatever machine after 10 minutes. If you go there with your Chinese girlfriend all the men call her bad names because she is dating you the foreigner, well at least they do until you ask them if they have a problem with your girl, then as the pussies they are they suddenly shut their mouth.
I got the gym at home now, everything I need to work out every parts of the body, I don't have to deal with the BS going on at the gym club anymore.
In China everytime, everywhere there are conflicts and I hate such behaviors, people here seem to not be able to mind their own business, it's always about comparing themselves with others, especially local boys with foreign men. I wonder if this is a remnant of the "communist" era, everyone spying on everyone else.
DrMonkey:
Woooow, those gyms sound awful. I guess I'm lucky with my gym... Nobody bring kids, and overall, people come to exercise with a suitable attitude. I come mostly for the treadmill, as the air outside is too noxious to run.
The one-upping thing happens, but it's rare, only newcomers do this... And they don't come back. I've been running for years, so I've my own pace that works for me. Once, a guy came, and ran for 2 minutes. He look at the settings on my treadmill, and then set his to maximum speed. Next minute... The guy, out of breath, felt head first on the treadmill. He never came back.
Keep the class interesting and they will behave.
You also might want to work on your classroom management skills.
laowaigentleman:
The problem is that if I make the class interesting for them then I have to compromise severely on the quality of the lessons I give them.
It's very easy to say the things that you're saying here, but in New Zealand and Australia I didn't have this problem at all.
The only time they shut up is when I take them outside to play sports or put on a movie. This is in the primary school I'm working in now.
You would think that an English major might find the analysis of English prose writing and romantic poetry interesting, but they don't.
Last year the students said they thought the lessons were boring so I asked them what they wanted to talk about and they said celebrities and shopping.
Again, in western countries this doesn't happen. I am so grateful I wasn't educated in this country because I'd be as thick and shallow as a piece of four by two if I was.
In my current school I observe other classes and the teachers tend to make little progress with their lesson plans and are shouting themselves hoarse at these spoiled little dropkicks.
Still, it's good news for the operators of the malls. They have another generation of idiots coming through to buy their shonky merchandise so there's no need to upgrade the quality of the stock.
Brave New World without the alphas.
dongbeiren:
@ laowai
I'm not surprised that English majors didn't find romantic poetry to be interesting. The English major in China is very different from the English major in native speaking countries. In China, it's about learning to speak the language, not about literature analysis and appreciation. Most English majors in China become English teachers or translators. Actually, a lot of English majors in China are not even really interested in learning the language. They just want an easy major.
laowaigentleman:
@dongbeiren
I agree. What needs to happen to lift the quality of the English teachers in China is to not let so many lazy Chinglish speaking asses graduate with an English major.
If the criteria's changed, they'll have to adapt to it.
For the good of the nation, my friend. For the good of the nation. 
I work a side gig at a middle school here and the first two month I felt the same way, until i realized it wasn't my job to manage them or even really teach them English if we're gonna be honest. My real job is to get them excited about English by telling them about America and showing them how great their lives could be if they spoke English, so they will study harder and do well on their tests. So that's when I just started using simple powerpoints with a lot of funny videos, which makes my jobs SUPER easy because videos keep their attention, so i barely have to speak or tell them to be quiet. Like this week I taught them about Christmas, and I dressed up as Santa Claus, they thought this was hilarious. Then I taught them about different American Christmas traditions and followed up with several funny christmas videos. After every class their reaction is always "wooooooooooooow!! I want to go to America!" and I say "Study English!" and it actually works. Their scores have improved dramatically.
laowaigentleman:
Believe me, I do appreciate your response and I take it as encouragement, but with respect, it doesn't actually answer the question.
I am trying to understand why it is necessary to have to pander to them when they should just try to be responsible individuals and acquire knowledge so they don't wind up on the scrap heap when they're older. In the case of young kids, their parents should have taught them some manners. The worst thing for me coming from a quiet culture is being around people who yell and scream when they're indoors. It's bloody awful to have to endure. Also when we play games, they all start talking over the top of each other. These are very basic rules of conduct which they should have learned around the age of five and six years of age.
I always thought education was considered important in China. Now I think they just want empty credentials which any sane employer would only use as toilet paper.
It is great that you aroused their enthusiasm for English so much. I have showed them ppts about England and food, but I haven't really made them so humorous. I will try this.
Thanks for the tips 
WanderingTeacher:
Yes I completely understand what you mean. I guess i've just gotten so used to it that it doesn't bother me as much anymore. I agree, they should have been taught these things a LONG time ago. A few weeks ago, I taught them about Etiquette in America, and basically EVERYTHING that they do in China, I told them it would be unacceptable to do in America. From the spitting, to the yelling disrespectful children, public urination, etc. Since they all think that all Americans have guns, I told them if they did these things in America, someone might shoot them..which is semi true..you never know haha. So now they try to behave better.
I also noticed that they touch each other too much. The students are always pushing, kicking, or hitting each other, all the time, and the teachers never stop them. In fact, yesterday i witnessed a teacher slap a student in the face and push him against a bookcase, for not doing his homework. I quickly got up and left the office, because I can't see things like that. I know it's acceptable in China, but in America I would've punched this teacher in face. It's so unacceptable for anyone to put their hands on another person, especially on a Child, ESPECIALLY if they are not even your child. I don't know. The more I see things, the more I try to understand. But I understand why they are the way they are. Their lives revolve around school and education, or the illusion of education. But the must study and do so much homework to compete so they can get into college. And when they get into college, they don't pay attention in class, and I actually don't blame them. I probably would do the same thing if i spent my childhood and teenage years with my head in textbooks all the time. So I try to cut them some slack, the got dealt some bad cards just by being born in China. I feel more sympathy for them, rather than frustration.I truly hope most of them can learn and master English and get the hell out of here.
I have been tempted many times to write into the online translator that nature abhors a vacuum and that if you can't take responsibility for yourself, there are more than enough klepto-gerontocrats floating around who will happily fill the void - for a nominal fee.
Online translators are too shitty and the subtlety would be lost on them.
I would guess the main reason is Chinese students have longer studing time at school and many Chinese parents will send their children to attend the trainning classes.They feel relivered when they back to school.
As for university student,after finishing the long chinese education system they finnally find themselves to be free^^So lets say Time to Party.
Those are very understandable.Most Chinese students do not have many activities after school.They are bored with so much studing.Some schools even make students study at night.
And the Chinese GaoKao destoried so many people's life.It is very stupid to decide who can go to the university by one exam.Those who passed Gaokao find themself to be free and it is usually very easy to pass the university exam in Chinese universities,so many students do not take classes serious and many of them will party for 3 or 4 years untill the day they walk out of the campus 
It is really hard to make the students behave here if the Chinese government doesn't stop pushing the students so much and the parents do not give so much pressure on their children.
Some teachers can act very strict to make the student behave better.But can not really make the students behave well everyday.Even the behaving is going better after being strict and punishment.Maybe it will lead to the students' psychological problem :( So sad to feel for students who are studing under the Chinese education system.
DrMonkey:
I heard the "we work so much before university". The grades are in theory between 0 and 100. But in practice, no teacher gives grades bellow 60, for a various set of reasons (student's face, teacher face, social harmony, avoiding troubles). In practice, everyone pass regardless of the work quality. Truly good students are not rewarded with grades, but with better opportunities to study abroad. That does not quite encourage meaningful studies.
Strawberry66:
But not everyone will want to go study abroad and not all of family can afford it as the Chinese currency is so low.
When you the students go to interview,many Chinese employers will not even want to talk with you after they know that the students do not have the CET69 years 27 weeks ago
There are few consequences for failure at university level. That is one of the key problems here. Also, watch how children behave - shrieking like idiots and running onto roads etc - and how their parents don't discipline them. The Chinese are an infantilised people, the cycle of incompetence never ends and will never end, because ending it would require them to recognise that they're wrong about something. And that would cause a loss of face. So get used to your students being useless, with a few honourable exceptions.
Being strict with classes and individuals is tiresome, but it's better than not doing anything to improve discipline. In my previous college, we had too many foreign teachers. Many of them were incompetent and didn't care at all about their job. They would just show movies every second class, or play card games with them, never give them homework, try to be their friend, etc. I found that the students of these "teachers" did not respect them and often praised my classes in comparison, because I actually had standards - I always call the roll, give and check homework, shout at and shame troublemakers... By all means, if your students are not paying attention, doing substandard work or speaking rudely to you, do be strict with them and don't take any shit. Don't say sorry for being strict either. Strictness is what they expect and what they need.
people dont take responsibilty on so many levels. it ranges from students & parenting, through hospitals, police and business, all the way to the government. people neglect their kids, justifying it with feel-good stories: "mom & dad never say they love you because they show it in their actions (i.e. feeding you). we send you to grandma in the countryside because we're poor/busy working. we ship you off to boarding school because we want you to be successful."
bad behaviour is a symptom of this disfunctional culture. nobody takes responsibility. parents and staff prefer to be smiling onlookers when kids assault the foreign teacher. i had to threaten to quit before staff grudgingly agreed to keep an eye on it.
i do this BS to feed my family. i can't change all the wrongs on Planet China. you'll soon find that all manner of trouble finds you when you try to improve things, because people care more about face loss and harmony than social/intellectual development.
if these kids/adults want to waste their time & money on this weird form of entertainment, i humour them to feed my family. i only care about the people who care about their own development, the rest are from a different world. "i cant understand their culture."
Eorthisio:
Kids assaulting FTs... tell me about it. And when you stop them firmly (because asking them quietly doesn't work) you are a child abuser. However when locals who didn't shower for weeks touch your foreign or mixed baby with their dirty hands full of germs it's okay, and you are a China hater for not tolerating it.
I've put kids out of class and it really got the attention of the rest of the class. Unfortunately, 5 minutes later the head teacher came by and put them back in, totally undermined me and let it be known that the class would be a 'free-for-all.' She actually scolded me. I told her to stay in the room, or look through the window, and observe her angels. She refused because it's her time to dick around on the 'net or sleep. That's when I knew I had to teach serious students. Luckily, I've found a job that provides them. I feel for you.
Familiarity breeds contempt. Don't smile for the first 2 weeks of class. Appear aloof, grumpy, hard to please - like some kind of 1950's father figure. Develop your ability to give "shit-eye" (an evil and menacing stare). If you come across as some kind of communist, hard-man, shit-kicker like Mao then you will get the respect you deserve.
It's a daily battle mate. I'm at a middle school in an area full of migrant families and the benefits of staying outweigh the alternative. I'm completely in charge of myself and my schedule is a winner.
But most of the students are completely wasting their time and mine and I can't do anything to change that. They have zero interest in English and are not encouraged by anyone else to develop an interest.
In all honesty English is of no practical use to 95% of Chinese people and I think it should be dropped as a compulsory subject. Shouldn't be included in that farce they call Gaokao either.
But that said, I have some wonderful students that I no doubt help tremendously. And because they are good students they in turn are helping me. I continue to teach purely because of them.
The barrier for them achieving their potential though is that most of their peers are too busy disrupting the class for them to get a fair go.
I must spend 75% of the class asking, very politely, of course, for the non contributors to please please please... shut the fuk up!
Spiderboenz:
Who says that you HAVE to be polite? Maybe this only works with highschoolers, but I have found that if I (playfully) make fun of class disruptions near the begining of a class period, the rest behave the whole time. But maybe migrant kids behave differently.
