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Q: Why is it So Hard for a Non-Native to Get an ESL Job Here?
Is it a government requirement to have just natives for ESL positions?
10 years 16 weeks ago in Business & Jobs - China
Did you think the sign-language guy at Mandelas memorial service was OK?
Scandinavian:
Well, you see. The guy who did sign language at this event was not actually trained in sign language, he just winged it. The reason why schools require native speakers is that they are assumed to be better at the language than non-native speakers. Although this can be questioned, there is a cultural understanding that only native speakers will have. Besides grammar and vocabulary you need to be able to properly understand and use the language in the correct context. Most of us, when we speak English as a second language will do some direct word by word translations from our native language which may be understandable in English, but you'd never see a native English speaker structure sentences like that.
Also, there are rules for the schools that only people from English speaking countries are actually allowed to teach.
mike695ca:
I dont know man, that doesnt make sense. Besides we have all met non native teachers that are just as good at their jobs as anyone else. Often much harder working too. Its not like you need to worry about a non native taking your job as you have your advantages anyways. Your elitist attitude doesnt help anything. Just makes ya look like a dick.
mike695ca:
btw , as someone from scandinavia, are you a native speaker?? Was there anything from the language in his post that would lead you to believe that he is any less qualified than you?
louischuahm:
I understand where you are coming from. However, if a non native is able to speak near perfect English, sentence construction, grammar and all, it is still difficult. I've been able to secure part time jobs in training schools so far. The pay sucks big time but I see it as a way of gaining experience. I'm not so much pissed off with the way it is but somehow I do feel sidelined. Then again, I do know of several non natives hired in some far out cities. Anyway, thanks for the clarification.
dom87:
you have to be native speaker to express the 5 words you teach in a kindergarten to the 2 year olds. Because only native speakers can express "hello" "how are you?" "Nice to meet you" "see you next week" in the correct cultural way
Scandinavian:
English is very different from e.g. India (here counting India as an Eglish speaking country) to Texas. Ever heard two Indians talk together in English ? Works perfect for them, but sure as hell not something I can understand. An Indian and a Singaporean talking English together..... is it even possible? A Texan would most likely be difficult for some to understand, and I have in the past had extreme difficulty understanding cabbies in Birmingham.
Being native speaker doesn't solve the problem. But no one has ever lost their job for hiring a native English speaker to teach. (paraphrasing the IT saying that No IT administrator has ever lost his job for buying IBM)
Sinobear:
Scandanavian is right: the law stipulates that to hire an English teacher (or subject taught in English) he/she must be from the U.S, Canada, Aus/NZ, or the U.K. South Africans are at the whim of the local gov'ts.
Keep in mind that many parents want their little dumpling to study abroad in those countries and therefore it is advantageous to have a native English speaker to impart the specific cultural norms to those students.
The reality that Chinese employers and/or clientele can be discriminatory is a fact of life in China and no PC whinging is going to change that.
Scandinavian:
@mike. No, I am not a native speaker. Us Scandinavians do have the "advantage" over e.g. Germans, that our languages is spoken by so few people that things like TV is largely other languages with subtitles. For a small audience it is too expensive to find someone who can do a credible Bruce Willis in Swedish ("Yipee kayee din jävel") Even my old retired dad has pretty decent pronunciation despite him being from another age, before the world shrunk)
There is nothing in OP (unlike previous similar questions) that leads me to think Louis would be a great English teacher. I am merely conveying the sentiment of the world to him.
mike695ca:
fair enough, your right about the sentiment part, as well as scandinavians. I have a boatload of family from Finland, its much the same.
royceH:
Sinobear.... Why the Aust/NZ, and the other English speaking countries mentioned as separate entities? Just curious about your thinking here. You'd be closer to the mark if you'd bracketed Canada and the USA this way....Canada/USA. Like that. At least they share a border and for Australian and New Zealand thinking that could well warrant them classification as one big country. Australia shares a border with no one. And nor does New Zealand. Each has a separate government and constitution. Why do they?.. because they are separate countries. Perhaps you weren't aware of this, given they are so remote, happy and stable (thus avoiding what usually constitutes news coverage in the Northern Hemisphere), unlike most of the rest of the world.
icnif77:
@royce: 'bracket is necessary,
because both countries have abundance of sheep'
and sharks…O2,O2..I read about protest in Oz, because Gov. wants to 'repatriate' (probably to the fish soup) all sharks close to some beach... Why are you all so serious? I'm having a laugh.
He put the bracket, 'cause he's Canuck, rich in tar sands. More oil reserves than SaudiA.
"The term Canuck is first recorded about 1835 as an Americanism (American term), originally referring specifically to a French Canadian.Sinobear:
I dunno: it just always seems that Aus/Nz go together. Canadians are far too intelligent and good-looking to want to be mistaken for those from the UselesS. Certainly, no one wants to be mistakenly identified as from the U.K (unless you're Scottish, Welsh or Irish - in which case you're not British anyway). I've never known an Aussie to be offended when mistaken for a Kiwi and I've never known a Kiwi who could understand enough English to be offended. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
its just the way it is man, schools feel they pay too much already for foriegn teachers so if they have a choice they will pick only natives from particular countries regardless of skill or experience.
Not saying its right but its the way it is, youll have to hope a school doesnt care or wants to save cash by hiring a non native speaker. Your city is also a factor, if you are in a top tier place, competition is tougher as salaries are higher.
You can consider going rural and west as less natives work there and they are more willing to hire non natives to fill positions or stay in the big cities and except less money, or just be patient and hope you find someone who will look past it.
Good luck!
louischuahm:
Hey, thanks! No way I'm giving up. I've already received a few replies from prospective recruiters. So I suppose I need time for them to sort out the interviews and such. I missed out one for a university in Zhengzhou because the principal didn't want a non native although my credentials were more than what they wanted. Shucks!
mike695ca:
word of advice. stop your contact with recruiters now. youll definatly get screwed and lied to. this website has plenty if jobs in every city where you can work with schools directly and find a much better situation.
louischuahm:
Yes, I've heard of many horror stories from friends as well about recruiters. Thanks for the advice!
icnif77:
Recruiters are 'in the know' of the job openings. Most of them are bad, but you can spot that right away.
I worked with 4 excellent placement agents, which I would recommend to anybody.
louischuahm:
Do let me know so perhaps I could ask them for help? Many thanks mate!
louischuahm:
@icnif77: nothing in my inbox yet. I will check again later. Thanks loads!
I don't think it's a government requirement, i've met many non-native speakers who've managed to get work. Personally I think there's plenty of room for non-native speakers in teaching positions. It seems to me that one major trait of native English speakers is they tend to be mono-lingual (we English approach communication abroad by shouting with an accent, and if that doesn't work, trashing the restaurant) , and so have no experience of studying a foreign language. It surely must be helpful to have such experience to draw from when put in the position of teaching people to do just that.
mike695ca:
i partially agree, while theres no doubt that someone that has really studied english would have an understanding of yhe makeup of the language while native speakers have never thought about it, just know yhe answer intuitivly, this advantage would really only apply if yhe native teacher was new without proper training. Anyone with experience would have figured that out. while on the other hand there are quirks to the language that would be difficult to really get unless you were native. no matter how much you have studied
louischuahm:
I'm Singaporean, by the way. I was born into an English speaking environment, educated in English and lived most of my adult life in an English speaking world. I can also speak Chinese very fluently coupled with various dialects. Still, it hasn't been easy. Some recruiters were so rude to the extent that they tell me if I'm not white please don't waste their time! This is the first time I've been stood up for being an Asian in an Asian country! Ludicrous!
mike695ca:
yeah, asians seem to have it the worst. It doesnt matter if your a native speaker. If you look chinese, yohr chinese. Its a non starter. Seems strange that they cant understand it as every person ive met has a cousin or classmate abroad. The idea that a chinese could be born abroad and shock! horror! not be so chinese is just too difficult to compute.
I have to agree with you and Mike. It's a sad fact of life here. I work at an international kindergarten, in communications dept and teaching, and have direct contact with the parents of the "dumplings" in question. They walk through the door and choose our school (or not) on the basis of how many white faces (kids AND teachers) we have. Chinese parents want the most foreign "bang for their buck" for the tuition they are paying. We get tons of applications from English speakers from places like the Philippines and India, but the powers that be (admin and parents) veto any teachers that aren't white and from the US, UK, Canada, Australia, NZ, and speak fluent unaccented English. It is discriminatory. I have repeatedly tried to convince them otherwise, but it falls on deaf ears. At the end of the day, the school is a business. The parents also say they want their kids to be immersed in English and learn "western culture and style of thinking." Because western early childhood educational philosophy is so different (learning through play, creative, discovery-based, Montessori, etc) from the Chinese system (rote learning, drills, memorization), I worry for the kids who leave our kindergarten and jump into the Chinese public school system.
louischuahm:
You are quite right about the dumpling thingy. I've seen with my own eyes how a parent raved and ranted when the teacher wasn't white. Talk about discrimination! You'd think you'd seen it all! It's hopeless trying to explain to them. The cultural divide is just too wide to even meet in the middle with them.
As mentioned above, jobs are available for non native speakers out west. Unless you're not interested in avoiding the crowded east I'd suggest you consider Xinjiang...the Far West. Life is not quite the same here as in the rest of China.
I know one of the middle schools in my little city employs two teachers from Ghana. And a primary school employs a Filipino.
You could contact the schools directly, avoiding the recruiters.
Give it some thought.
louischuahm:
Thanks Royce. I've written to several western Chinese schools and training schools. Still no reply. Perhaps the time isn't quite right yet for them to hustle? I suppose it's before the Chinese New Year when everyone wants all recruitment bedded down and that's when the rush begins. I'll hang in that and see what happens. Meantime, I'll just keep sending out those applications.
icnif77:
One of the posters from eChina is in contact with 'my' Public School in Fukang. I am aware of another 2 FT openings at the Middle School in the city. Schools hire here 'immediately'. Middle of Semester? Doesn't matter! No recess in FT hiring. I started last year in May, for 5 weeks of lessons, then 2M holidays with 1/2 pay. When I suggested, I could start in the new semester in Sep., School replied: 'Start ASAP!
Never stop sending your CV to the Schools from 'Jobs' section here. Look also at the 'Beijinger' . This is an hour of work per day. I consider looking for job as my 'part-time job'.
Don't worry, WHY 'no replies'. Chinese won't reply, if they aren't interested. Keep sending.
Good luck!
louischuahm:
Thanks icnif77. You won't belie how many applications I send out each day! I talking at least 50 a day. But I'll try Beijinger, who knows right? Cheers mate!
icnif77:
Don't worry about 'how many'. In China, there is close to 300M English students. If every class isn't smaller than 50 students, China must/wants to employ 6M Native English teachers. From where?
There is room for Non-Native English teachers in China.
louischuahm:
Yes, I got that figured out a while back. The demand far outstrips supply. That's why I will keep sending out my CV. In any case, I'm sure some will answer just to fill the quota for the day.
icnif77:
Whoever reply to you, is interested. When you get their Contract, you should study that! Study! And ask Q! Don't reply right away with 'yes'.
icnif77:
@lou: 'I read your replies below, and.......Send your CV everywhere! It doesn't matter, if advert requires, you are Native English teacher. Send it everywhere. Let the School choose suitable FT, 'cause maybe School is long time without FT, and they might decide to have interview with you. Keyword: 'EVERYWHERE'.
louischuahm:
@icnif77. Yes, I am sending to all the advertisements, regardless of whether they are asking for native speakers or not, plus I added my Skype ID so they can contact me easily. So far, I have been getting quite a few responses. Let's see how it goes. Thanks for your support and encouragement!
hey i just finally got to reading the weekend posts. i was born in Singapore and my mother was born in Malaysia. i work at a university in northern China. i have some advice and experiences both first and second hand that i think can be useful to you. although i am only half Chinese (my father is American), i look Asian/Hispanic/Xinjiangren for some odd reason. nobody knows what the hell i am. being half Chinese has always benefited me in china. parents feel more comfortable, students and faculty too. but, the key lies in me having an American passport. although it says i was born in Singapore, the cover says USA. since i have that passport, i think my time has been relatively easier than yours. also, there are two English girls in my city that are 100% Chinese, but were born and raised in the UK. if they didn't speak, you would think they were from here. they both worked at a public middle school in my city. their contracts were up last month and they couldn't find new jobs at the local private schools because all the principles thought they looked too Asian. only their middle school would keep them. maybe you should try public schools, from their experiences i don't think they care as much. also, there is a teacher here who is Chinese, but immigrated to Australia when he was young. he teaches English/Chinese, but has an Australian passport. to be honest, his English isn't great... not bad.. but not great. basically i think if you stick to it and keep trying, you can find your little piece of the pie. let me know what happens. if you want the info for the schools in my city that hired the above people, let me know.
louischuahm:
@paul, thanks for the heads up. I've had some skype interviews the last couple of weeks and they went well. I've also received replies to my applications (numbering in the hundreds!). I think it wouldn't be long before I land a job. Nevertheless, I am still sending out my CV as long as there is a suitable one. At the moment, I am giving one on one lessons with a private school in Guangzhou. And yes, please do PM me the info on the schools you mentioned. Anything will help, I suppose. Truly appreciate your help. Hope your week goes well!
Keep trying Louis!
I personally know of around 20 Filipino teachers working legally in Hebei province with FEC etc. They are on a decent enough salary, around 5500RMB a month with free housing etc for around 25 classes a week. Two drawbacks: Hebei is the most polluted province in China, possibly the world and it is kindergarden teaching.
Good luck!
louischuahm:
@Rin, thanks for the encouragement! Yes, I am sending out CVs everyday. Some reply, most don't. So I suppose it's working. I have some skype interviews this week so, fingers crossed!
I am one of those "tweeners" here. I am white, I was educated in the USA(kindergarten through university), but I travel and work around China on a Mexican Passport. So basically I am considered a non-native speaker even though I am a native speaker.
For you here is the caveat, get your perspective employee to give you a skype interview. Once they hear your language, they can put aside some of the he/she is not white paradigm.
Once you get to your school, outwork everyone in what you do and how you do it.
Last year one female American teacher was fired from the her job at a middle school in my town. The school hired another Mexican.
louischuahm:
@juan, yes, most of the schools want passports from the big 5 only. I also noticed that they'd hire anyone with or without experience. It's like pulling some guy off the street and displaying him in front of the class for the sake of having a laowai in their schools. In some cases, they also want full body shots of the applicants! I don't mind sending my mug shot but full body shot? I think that's pushing it too far. I have nothing against anyone from the big 5 but I do wish the schools would be more selective. I mean, whether their kids come out educated properly or not isn't a priority to them. It's a business based on demand and supply. But I know that I will land a job sooner or later. It's a matter of casting a wider net. So, wish me luck, yes?
