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Q: Will China have its own 'Snowden'?
Probably asked before, but the torture thread made me think of it.
(hmmmm - what category....suggestions also accepted, with reasons)
China has had like 100,000 Snowden's over the course of it's existence. Problem is, everyone already knew about it, or nobody cares.lol
laowaigentleman:
The regular Chinese are down at the mall buying a load of tacky shit to impress their thick relatives. They don't care about principles.
It's like Brave New World without the Alphas.
It looks Chinese are (too) busy with Russians on American one.
China has probably had loads of Snowdens.
As soon as they land they claim asylum and are snatched up instantly, interrogated, investigated, and then vanish into the wind.
Western nations are probably not all that keen on telling the press what secrets they have been told.
And would China really care? I don't think so. All China has to do is dump it's foreign Government bonds and the world is fecked.
.laowaigentleman:
Its 8% of the total amount of US bonds?
That would be like hitting a steamroller with a shovel.
mattsm84:
LOL. This isn't really the trump card people make it out to be. If China dumps its foreign bonds the world just buys them back, finds other buyers and passes them around between themselves, and sells what left to the populous. China on the other hand would lose interest that those bonds pay, which is why they bought them in the first place, without really gaining much in return.
mattsm84:
There is a difference between a whistle blower and a defector. A defector just wants out and is willing to trade information or hardware for a chance at it. China has more of these than the rest of the world really knows what to do with. Hell, for many, seeking political asylum is a path to citizenship. But Snowden wasn't a defector, at least not at first or by his original intention.
A whistle-blower, by contrast tries to use the free press, which China doesn't have, to use the voting public, which again China doesn't have, to pressure politicians to change a policy or personal, which the CCP would never allow.
I bet if it hasn't yet, then the North of China at least will be getting snowed in very soon.
jetfire9000:
My pun was akin to the pronunciation of "Snowden" to "Snowed in" just in time for the holidays to say the least.
I didn't quite get the other one.... What is a slow den?
icnif77:
'Slow-then' phonetically. Non-natives (I) see English different….
Just think a while of what kind of important documents could be leaked from China and to what purpose.
Chinese taking a risk for anything is already kind of a joke, let alone taking risks for anything as intangible as the common good. Chinese giving a shit about the guy who took the risk... yeah well by the time you get public awareness, you'll have the internal narrative ready to negate the poor man's work 24/7. "traitor to the country, traitor to the Chinese race (sic), CIA agent", you name it really.
And that is to consider he somehow makes it to the public. Remember it took 2 months and thousands on the streets so mainland starts acknowledging something is going on in Hong Kong.
Now there's also the question: leak what? What kind of documents would be in China's possession that would be about something we don't already know. China tortures? We know that and there are pictures and testimonies. China steals? Yeah the Mandiant report already proved that. China is making moves in XYZ industry? Who would risk his life to leak that, better dump it to some government for monies.
Snowden was about a government that has installed the means of totalitarian state within a democracy and a people who are so fucking in love with their own farts that they truly can believe their constitution can mean anything in a country that's governed by lawyers. It could only ever be the US.
Shining_brow:
Would the official history of certain high ranking CCP members' financial history be considered an important document? Explicit evidence of payments for shoddy building contracts or payments to look the other way for environmental disasters count?
How about 100% proof of judges taking bribes to declare a certain way in court cases?
Again, all things we 'know', but haven't had proven... just like Snowden and Assange.
It's possible but unlikely due to the fact that people in a position of power in China where they have access to that kind of information are forbidden from leaving the country (military intelligence etc.).
The only way this would be possible is if a single Chinese Snowden were to spirit out their family and maybe GF out of the country first and then have a secret exit plan....probably through a land border with one of the "stans" in the northwest. Then it might be possible.
But really...how would a Snowden type ever have the chance to question policy and intelligence in China when they have not only been brain washed through childhood in school but also through CCP military hard core indoctrination? The chances of an intelligence operative in China with knowledge of morality and conscience beyond China (free thought) is the same as having drinks with a virgin KTV girl in Beijing.
No. Leaks are really only possible in liberal democracies. Full stop. Taking a closer look, its one of the things that puts the lie to the notion that "well, they're really just the same anyway"
Think about it. Why do people leak in the first place? It isn't really to shame the powers that be by letting some state secret slip out. Its really done to put public pressure on the government to change a specific policy. It was what happened with Watergate, and then later the pentagon papers. Mark Felt had issue with clandestine actions of the executive branch under Nixon while Daniel Ellsberg wanted to stop the enlargement of the war in Vietnam as it began to seep into Laos and Cambodia without the public's knowledge.Both of those are clear goals that could reap electoral consequences.
Actually, this is one of the more valid criticisms of modern leakers like Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange and Edward Snowden. Each of these leaks were info dumps that weren't really focused on overturning a specific policy. Even Snowden, who had the closest thing to a clear objective, just handed a bunch of documents to Glen Greenwald and left what to publish to his discretion. Years later now literally nothing has changed. But how could it. The public has no idea of who to hold accountable for which wrongdoing. Its nebulous.
Back to the topic at hand, who would a Chinese Snowden leak to? The domestic press is an arm of the government so they wouldn't touch it. Blogs and social media are too unreliable as sources. And foreign media outlets are too easily demonized. But assuming a specific message is able to get out. What then? Without elections there is no civic engagement from the public. The type needed to change government policy or threaten political careers does not exist. In is place in only the ability to cause the government to adopt a siege like mindset.
TL;DR Leakers try to cause political change in personal and/policy through public pressure. China lacks the mechanism for those public pressures to be effective.
RiriRiri:
Very nice development on this point.
I only slightly disagree on the part where you state Snowden had a limited impact. It had a tremendous worldwide impact in the sense that a bunch of topics went from "conspiracy theories" to "admitted facts". Maybe it didn't get anyone out of office immediately, let alone dismissing the whole institution, but it rose public awareness in an unprecedented fashion. Pre-2013, no one could say Microsoft or Google was spying on you without being called a nutbag.
DrMonkey:
It's not a lack of mechanism that makes public pressures ineffectual in China.
A well documented case with a clear trail of events is the New Citizen Movement, a microscopic movement who asked for a bit of transparency and actually applying Chinese law for everybody, officials included. They used pacific public demonstrations. They are now in jail (reading some of the declaration of the jailed members made me almost cry), with very little publicity, I never met anybody who heard of them in China. Public pressures don't work because they are rare, small, carefully contained and stamped out at their earliest stages. There is a well-working mechanism that *actively* makes public pressures ineffectual.
Shining_brow:
(C&P from above comment...)
Would the official history of certain high ranking CCP members' financial history be considered an important document? Explicit evidence of payments for shoddy building contracts or payments to look the other way for environmental disasters count?
How about 100% proof of judges taking bribes to declare a certain way in court cases?
Again, all things we 'know', but haven't had proven... just like Snowden and Assange.
mattsm84:
It isn't that their isn't stuff a Chinese Snowden could leak, rather that the how and to what end make the situation impossible to recreate. Once again, given the government monopoly on the domestic press, what immediately credible outlet would or even could run the story? Nobody would. Even if China Daily or whatever did publish the story, again an impossible hypothetical, the idea is that the information spur some kind of public reaction that would cause some sort of actionable reform. Simple awareness is not enough and should not be the goal of a responsible leaker. In the absence of ballot box no credible threat to relevant officials or public policy exists. It's all risk and no reward.
