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Q: Will previous illegal employment affect application for Z visa?
I have been offered a great job with a company in China and they are ready to sponsor me for the employment license & Z visa. However, I previously worked in China as an English teacher on a tourist visa, which I know is illegal.
My question is: will that affect my ability to be approved for the Z visa and employment license?
A few facts about my case:
1) the illegal work occurred in 2008-2009, then again in 2012-2013. The new job will start August 2014
2) I have a new passport now (with a different passport number) that does not contain any of the old Chinese tourist visas or the entry/exit stamps, so the passport that I use to apply for the Z visa will not show any of that information.
3) I never registered with the Public Security Bureau in my city (Chengdu) and never had any run-ins with the police or immigration officials, and the new job is in a different city/province (Guangzhou).
4) I’m American, currently in the US.
5) I plan to explain the situation to my employer, and write a different resume that does not list my China employment for them to submit with my employment license application.
Taking all of these facts into account (especially the fact that I’ll be using a different passport and have no police record in China), would there be anything to alert the Chinese government of my previous employment in China? Thanks!
12 years 20 weeks ago in Visa & Legalities - China
The chances of it having any affect are very slim but do not obviously include previous Chinese teaching on the resume that is sent to SAFEA for the Foreign Experts' Certificate because that will raise a few awkward questions.
Kaiwen:
I have just re-read your post and it seems you are aware of the resume issue so I don't think you will encounter any other problems.
louischuahm:
She was on a tourist visa previously so she doesn't have any FEC to speak of. Which means SAFEA doesn't have any record of her teaching. However, if she was caught before then PSB may have an issue when issuing a RP. Taking into account of her new passport and all, I am also of the opinion that there shouldn't be any issues this time round.
Wow you guys are so fast! Thank you, I was hoping that others would think it wouldn't be a problem, because honestly that is what i think too.
Now I just have to convince my new employer of that fact. They've only been operating in China for a few years, so they may feel timid about submitting an altered resume out of fear that it will reflect poorly on them if found out.
Any suggestions on how to broach the topic with my employer?
Be very careful with the different passport. China has been using powerful facial recognition technology, since 2010 at least, on entry and departure, and they may suspect you of being a spy if you show up with a different passport/name/etc.
You really don't want that to happen.
lisa19:
Oh I don't mean that it's a different passport, like with a different name, birthdate, country, ect. I just mean that it's a new passport; people always get new ones once the old one expires, or you've used up all the pages, or it got lost or stolen. Of course all my personal info is the same, but it's a brand new passport with a new passport number. But thank you for mentioning that concern!
Hulk:
Well that's good. You should be fine with that, then. If you're questioned about it, just say your passport was lost/stolen.
On the other hand, like xinyuren says, I would not refer to your illegal teaching experience. It's good experience, yes, but it's more important to be here legally.
question:
have you given your old resume to your prospective employer?
if not, then send your revised resume
if your prospective employer has your old resume with your previous employment listed, they will use that as leverage against you, as regards pay, conditions etc. Believe me they will use this against you.
I suggest you find a new employer with your revised resume.
lisa19:
Hi Sorrel, yes the employer still has the resume that I submitted to apply for the job. I want to send them a revised resume to be used for the employment license.....but I'll have to explain why I'm doing so. I'm worried that they'll react negatively when they find out about the illegal employment. I plan to talk to them about it within the next few days. They are an American company with a new Chinese office, the Director is American, and the HR staff are Chinese.
It's a great job with a reputable company, so for now I won't worry about them using it against me...but I really appreciate the heads up from you! Right now I'm really concerned with how to broach the topic with them. Should bring it up with the American director of my department, or just talk to the Chinese HR girl? Any thoughts are appreciated.
icnif77:
@lisa: Just tell them, you 'really' helped the School (while on L) few times. But only, if they ask!'
Don't open Q by yourself!
sorrel:
if your employer is still prepared to employ you despite working illegally in the past, this for me is a heads-up for potential problems down the line.
Chinese companies will alter qualifications/resumes themselves for their own purposes regardless of what you say.
also, despite the Director being American, the day-to-day running of the school will be left to the Chinese.
on paper it is probably a good job, but they now have that leverage over you.
it might be a reputable company, but each local office is just that - a local office and they can vary greatly in terms of work conditions and local manager.
You should keep this in mind at all times.
lisa19:
@icnif77: Thanks but I'm a little confused by your response. When you say just tell "them," do you mean tell this to my new employer? I can't tell my new employer that I only "helped" a school a few times because I got this job based on that teaching experience, so I don't think I can tell my new employer that I do not have the skills/experience that got me the job.
And when you say "Don't open Q by myself" do you mean that I should not bring up the topic unless they ask? If I don't alert them to this problem, then they will submit that resume to the Chinese government for my employment licence...that is the first step before I even apply for the Z visa. So I think I really must talk to them about this. The question is: How?
lisa19:
@Sorrell: that is a good point that if they're willing to accept the revised resume then they may not be a good company...but who am I to judge when I was the illegal worker.
Also yes you're right about the Chinese being the daily manager, so I will speak to her about directly. I'll update you guys about what happens, I may talk to them about this Thursday or Friday.
icnif77:
@lisa: 'I suggest, you don't talk (ask or tell) to anybody about your L teaching experience. Leave your CV as it is! You explain it, 'you had helped School few times', only if asked. However, I don't see that likely.
Talk about it only to the entity which will ask Q about experience on L!
You are a US citizen and worked illegal here for sometime, I mean are you sure you are US national? Sorry I didn't know for I am non NAIVE speaker.
Anyhow you shouldn't be that blunt in asking the question with all the details. I wish you could get away with this. The Entry-Exit Bureau and a working permit might be a problem in your case.
thefidu881:
And you're a tat so tit for tat 
. Let's not be personal my friend because I don't want to ruin mine and your day by letting the evil come out of the bag. 
thefidu881:
Someone is looking to make his/her way to China to earn some JIAO for 'wiping'. And the 'law abiding perfect buddies' are helping how to deal with that illegally. O2, O2 Non NAIVE, Wu Mao, oh my god....
By the way I am about to believe RMB is going to replace USD very soon may be it has occurred the same way 'illegal work occurred back in 2008'. It wasn't meant but it occurred for a handful 'Jio' NAIVE NAIVE, I am a NAIVE Speaker am I not?
mike168229:
Let the evil out the bag?
What are you going to do? Strap on a vest and stand in a market place until it goes bang?
Get a grip you nonce.
thefidu881:
Not yet because I am waiting for the package from CA including CFOUR. 
You know its easy to send it to third world country like Pakistan but here we are in a developed country. you bloody hole in the pan....
You are in a pickle. I would not refer to my illegal experience in any way, shape or form unless I was queried. Do not associate yourself with it. It was a mistake and could have gotten you exported. Do not allow it to come back and haunt you. Do not be naive. When it China, there is always this possibility of that information coming back on you.
Dont tell your current employer you were working illegally. It doesnt matter. Your perfectly safe. Your company is new as you said and doesnt know anything anyways. They wont ask any questions. And with a new passport they cant see any old visas or what kind they where ( employer). I have been in Guangzhou and Guangdong for years, it is extremely highly unlikely that you will run into any issues while applying for the proper visa. Your not in their system and its was another province, and if you have everything that is required for right now. They really wont give a damn. Some people are highly paranoid but to assume that you are so important that the people are going to run a full on investigation on your background? Not gonna happen, especially here with so many foreigners.
You look all set.
Welcome to GZ! In my opinion by far the best city in China. Your gonna love it.
lisa19:
Thank you Mike. So you think when the employer submits my resume for the employment license to the Labor Bureau, the Bureau will not ask for proof that I had a valid work visa during those times listed on my resume?
mike695ca:
Exactly. I mean if you dont need it on there then why have it? But if you need it. Its never happened to me. Or anyone else that I know. And pretty much everyone has been duped or got screwed over and worked illegally for some period of time. from your original post you regulary go back to the states so that helps with them not looking at you so hard.
Some people will disagree but i doubt it actually happened to anyone on here first hand. Worst case scenario they ask about it. You say you signed on, they promised and applied for your work visa and they werent able to hire a foreigner so you moved on. Your a very responsable foreigner and you should be commended!
In my honest opinion, chance of that happening? 1% or less. You are more than fine.
thefidu881:
You really need a degree my friend.
For Z visa , she has to get a working permit from Foreign Experts Department which will check probably according to her resume and here she will get caught if she has put the experience in China on the resume.
She better tell the employer somehow to avoid living and working in fear all the time. Its far better to resolve it now instead of living in quagmires. If she get caught later, might be deported with a ban for some years.
mike695ca:
This is what im talking about. Paranoid. And what are you talking about degree sucka!? I in fact do have a degree and a Z visa and i could buy you to wear and monkey costume and make my kids laugh. You need to step back with that. I have been in gz for years. These offices are loaded. They do not research every person. If shes asking then obviously she cant go the straightest path. Common sense dude. Just a lady trying to find the best way to get shit done. Her company is new and doesnt know jack and shes worried theyll back off. My best advice. Guide them through the visa process a bit and suggest a change in the cv to make things smoother. Your employers wont care they just need to get it done. They used your cv to hire you. Theu dont care what cv will get you a visa and theu probably dont care u didnt have a z visa before.
icnif77:
@fidu: when I applied for 1st Z in Tianjin (2012), my listed teaching experience in China was only with F visa. I wasn't thinking about 'remodeling' my CV because of F. I'm still submitting same CV with added Schools for RP extension.
In my opinion, it was Chinese School's fault, they made me work with wrong visa.
Tianjin FEB required, I had to return to EU, and apply for Z in my home country.
School had to pay for return ticket by Contract, and School also needed FT 'tomorrow'. I'm sure, they specified Z pick up in HK, but it wasn't granted. I'm guessing, because of 'non-employment' (Z) record in FEB.
thefidu881:
I read a netizen's experience of getting a Z and EFC via a company over LinkedIn that states the rules are tighten by the Chinese. Two years experience and a bachelor degree but it depends on the cities. Don't forget your data is always stored in the computers as your L, F, Q and Zs are computerized not manual so how come you say they don't have a record of you.
Replaced Passports doesn't work as these countries have a shared system for identifying who has visited which country , when and for what?
As far degree is concerned, you definitely don't have for your 'REFINED' language shows it though you are a NAIVE Speaker. Don't get angry my friend I am just kidding for Natives and NON Natives we are all the same just trying to fetch the bucks of our part to 'wipe'.
As far Ms Lisa's query, my best suggestion is to tell the employer as according to her the employer is far more better. She doesn't want to come over here with qualification and experience for living in fear of getting cauht.
Your kids are laughing I think...
As long as you weren't reported to the PSB for working illegally you should be fine. If you were reported then it seems the record will follow you and it could prevent you from getting another visa though not sure with the new passport will have any bearing on that. I probably wouldn't say anything about it unless asked and wouldn't bother revising my resume especially if those jobs have anything to do with your qualifications for this one.
I really appreciate everyone's help...but I think I need to change my question. At this point the question is:
Does the Labor Bureau demand proof of a previous work visa if you list previous Chinese employment on the resume for the Employment license?
Please answer only if you have actually gone through the experience of having your resume submitted to the Labor Bureau, AND you listed your previous Chinese employment. Did you have to submit proof of a previous work visa for that previous employment? I appreciate everyone's opinions and assurances, but for now I'd just like to hear from people who have actual experience with this situation.
For the people who are confused about the whole resume issue:
1) When I applied for this job I listed my previous Chinese employment to show my skills and experiences. I can NOT go back to my new employer and say "Oh I never really worked those jobs."
2) The employer must submit that resume to the Labor Bureau in order to get the employment license that I will use for my Z visa application. The Labor Bureau will review it and clearly see that I used to work in China. My question is about weather they will ask if i had a work visa during that time, and if I say "No I did not," will they refuse to give me the employment license?
3) If the Labor Bureau will refuse me because of my previous work in China, then I want to tell the new employer about the situation before they submit the resume, and will ask them to submit an altered resume. If the Labor Bureau will not ask about previous work visas, then I don't have to alert my employer about my situation.
3) If someone has actually submitted a resume that listed previous Chinese work experience, please let me know what happened in your case: did the labor bureau demand proof that the previous work in China was legal? Hearing your actual experience will help me decide whether I should bring this up with the employer.
I hope things are more clear now. Thank you all!
mike695ca:
When I first came back to guangzhou i applied for a Z visa with the previous years experience from CQ listed ( illegal) . No questions asked.
When I left GZ and came to Shenzhen I gave a CV with none of my teaching experience in China. Period. No questions asked. There was a 5 year gap of my CV which any moron that looked in my passport would see a million chinese visas and could ask a million questions, but still. no questions asked.
Am I lucky? Perhaps. Devilishly handsome? My mom will say so. I dont know why, perhaps they are busy and they are looking at your current qualifications and thats enough.
People seem to have the opinion that the Cops here want to punish all foreigners, but my experiences have all been pleasant, more of an " if your not legal please get so" atitude.
Nothing is set in stone here so take what you will out of that.
icnif77:
I did, and I still show CV with all School's listed since 2009. Till 2012, I was working with F, not by my choice, but employer sponsored wrong visa.
I have never been asked about my experience, while with F visa, not at Z application or at Residence permit extension.
If I would be asked, I would tell 'I worked with F, which my employer sponsored….'.
louischuahm:
Lisa@ I worked for a year in Guangzhou without any visa. And I listed that on my CV. Nobody asked me anything about it. At the FEC and PSB what they look for is whether those documents they asked for are there, not the authenticity. Let me walk you through the process.
1. You submit all the required documents they want.
2. They look through, NOT READ, each document. For instance, if the required document is a degree, they look at what appears to be a degree and put a tick on their checklist.
3. After they've ticked all the boxes, they staple the lot in a bundle, attach a number and ask you to wait for your number to be called at another counter.
4. When they call your number, you hand over the bundle to the clerk.
5. Here's what happens, the clerk will look at the cover sheet that was ticked by her colleague but NOT your documents.
6. If she sees the stamp and signature of her colleague, she gives you a receipt and tell you to collect your passport 21 days later.
That's it. Nobody checks, reads or much less glimpse at your papers. With the number of applicants they handle per day, who's going to check. So long as they see the correct stamp and signature, they will pass it along.
Sometimes, I love bureaucracies!
lisa19:
Major thanks to all 3 of you!You have definitely eased my worries....I may have been paranoid over nothing. In case anyone is curious I will update you guys about how things go.
Most employers would prefer to turn a blind eye to this situation. My recommendation is that you don't add the period you worked in china in your CV and just tell them the situation in person
You'll be fine. I was just at the Chinese consulate in the UK with a new passport and they refused to take my previous passport; I asked why they didn't want it and they told me that because I had a new passport number they didn't care about my old one.
I have never worked in China illegally but I have submitted a new resume each year with my previous work experience of teaching in China. I have always received a new FEC. It never occurred to me that you would have to prove it. Then again; It sounds like you know allot of things. If the school wants you there they will figure out a way. The opposite is also true. Why would you want to be so honest about working illegally. It will not get you any brownie points. In fact it opens you up to abuse and coercion.
