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Q: will you date your student?
As a teacher,will you date your student,ifyou both find each other charming and attractive? But if you do,you may lose your job or your student...If you are not going to,how should you pretend like you have no feelings for him or her ?
8 years 9 weeks ago in Relationships - China
I had an adult student I dated, I don't see the big deal. Of course now I teach mostly young kids. I wouldn't date them.
ScotsAlan:
A person of authority... Dating students. Wow. Professional not. If you were CEO of a major bank, would you seduce your staff and offer them promotion? So wrong. So wrong.
mArtiAn:
I never seduced anyone, we just hit it off and got it on. But this was an adult in her late twenties, not some dewey eyed teenager. Either a person is an adult or they're not, it's not like teaching the present perfect is a date rape drug. And anyway, she was smoking hot. That's gotta make it alright.
Englteachted:
Scots: You're coming on way to hard. CEO and underling is not the same as Training school teacher and Adult student.
expatlife26:
I agree with ted and martian. A training school teacher and a student is more of a customer/employee relationship than a CEO/underling one.
The difference is that the teacher has no ability to affect the student's future other than doing their job well and the student learning. It's not like any exams are given by the training school that this instructor grades that can affect their college admissions or something.
It's like saying that a guy who owns an auto body shop is unethical to date a woman whose car he repairs.
WooMow:
Just for clarification, was this a student in a class or a tutoring job on the side? If you were just her tutor and you decided to stop that and start dating, I see no problem.
If it were a Uni class where the grades mattered, that's a little taboo.
I had an adult student I dated, I don't see the big deal. Of course now I teach mostly young kids. I wouldn't date them.
ScotsAlan:
A person of authority... Dating students. Wow. Professional not. If you were CEO of a major bank, would you seduce your staff and offer them promotion? So wrong. So wrong.
mArtiAn:
I never seduced anyone, we just hit it off and got it on. But this was an adult in her late twenties, not some dewey eyed teenager. Either a person is an adult or they're not, it's not like teaching the present perfect is a date rape drug. And anyway, she was smoking hot. That's gotta make it alright.
Englteachted:
Scots: You're coming on way to hard. CEO and underling is not the same as Training school teacher and Adult student.
expatlife26:
I agree with ted and martian. A training school teacher and a student is more of a customer/employee relationship than a CEO/underling one.
The difference is that the teacher has no ability to affect the student's future other than doing their job well and the student learning. It's not like any exams are given by the training school that this instructor grades that can affect their college admissions or something.
It's like saying that a guy who owns an auto body shop is unethical to date a woman whose car he repairs.
WooMow:
Just for clarification, was this a student in a class or a tutoring job on the side? If you were just her tutor and you decided to stop that and start dating, I see no problem.
If it were a Uni class where the grades mattered, that's a little taboo.
Totally wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.
ScotsAlan:
It's just wrong. Full stop. If you don't understand that, then.....someone else finish this sentence.
mArtiAn:
My only position of authority was an advanced knowledge of the English language. Unless you include doggy style. Suggesting that my relating a knowledge of English to another adult made them in some way vulnerable is daft.
ScotsAlan:
Was someone paying you to teach your conquests? Were they paying? Were you paid to teach?
mArtiAn:
What difference does that make? I just paid for a packet of cigarettes, would that make it unethical for the lady behind the counter to fuck me? It would be wrong, there's no doubt about it, but only because she's gross.
ScotsAlan:
OK. If it's between adults in a language mill, then go ahead. But I firmly believe the student teacher relationship should end. The student should find another teacher.
Why? Well, where do you draw the line? You are either a professional teacher or not. As a professional teacher you should be subject to the same rules, no matter where you teach.
You can't have it both ways ( not you specifically of course). You can't complain about not being taken seriously as a teacher in China, then decide the teacher student rules don't apply.
I have great respect for teachers. All teachers. It's something I could not do, As a profession, society as a whole puts a lot of trust into teachers. That's why professional teaching bodies have rules.
Shining_brow:
Scots - at the moment, your 'argument' is merely 'it's wrong because I think it's wrong'. which is somewhat similar to the way religious types 'argue'.
mArtiAn:
Ok, look, I'll square with you, I made the whole thing up, not to appear a stud, to make a point. I'm not backpedaling here either, in my twelve years of teaching I have kissed one student, the adult student I mentioned, but that's as far as it went. I would have totally got with her though, I was crazy into her, but she decided the language barrier between us was a problem. I wouldn't respect someone who plowed through their students, bedding them left right and centre, but I still stand by what I said at the start, between consenting adults it is nobody's business but their own.
ScotsAlan:
I apologise mArtiAn
I had a wee chat conversation about this with some friends,and I do now accept there is a difference.
This is what I like about debate. It change peoples pre-concieved ideas.
I have been educated. You guys have persuded me to change my mind.
mArtiAn:
Alan, no apology necessary, it's a touchy subject (no pun intended). And Brow; consenting adults? You know what that means. People who have reached adult age and are able to make adult decisions and are doing so with the the consent of an adult partner.
ScotsAlan:
From my chat this morning, I can see how there might be a fuzzy line in certain circumstances. But only in limited circumstances.
And I think, in those circumstances, the professional relationship would have to end as soon as the personal started.
I started out being totally against. But I can see in very rare cases it could be ok.
nicholasba:
People who have reached adult age,,,,
interesting argument considering that there are not less chinese girls with a brain age of 12, eg. Vicky ... So back to your sentence "People who have reached adult age"....is your "girl" around 40?then she has probably reached an adult age...
Shining_brow:
@mArtiAn - "People who have reached adult age and are able to make adult decisions and are doing so with the the consent of an adult partner."
So, as Nicholas just wrote - I think you'd be writing off Chinese under the age of 30.
Age of consent is a vastly different idea to age of sexual (mental/emotional) maturity.
mArtiAn:
I don't find Chinese girls any less mature than those anywhere else, some do that stupid, little girl act, but that's a small minority. On the contrary, many girls here grow up in such hard core poverty they're matured before their time just by the harshness of their experience.
Put it this way. If my daughter was your student. Then one day you turned up at my house with a cup of tea...I would instantly convert to a republican and shotgun your balls off.
There are lines you don't cross. And that is one.
ScotsAlan:
I need to add... I would not shotgun your balls because of any religious beliefs. It would not be because of political beliefs. It would simply be because you abused your position of power for your own selfish needs. If I employ you to teach, I expect a professional teacher. An affair with a student is an abuse of trust. A three way trust. Between student, payer and provider.
I would shotgun your balls on behalf of the real customer. Your student.
Mateusz:
So, you would attempt to murder (or at least severely maim, though shotgun wounds to the crotch would be lethal due to blood loss) a teacher for dating your daughter? That’s not even republican. That’s like 1950s style ultra traditionalist.
Also, if a female teacher were to date your son (or hypothetical son, if you don’t have one), would yo shoot her in the genitals as well?
expatlife26:
Well scots don't you think you aren't seeing the nuances of this specific situation that Martian described?
don't you think theres a difference between two adults at a language mill and a financially independent adult teaching a dependent student in a position where the teacher can affect their future prospects through grading of exams? like at a high school or college. On that count i'm totally with you, it's a trashy unethical thing to do.
But what martian said was at a language mill, two adults and the only way he can affect her future is by doing a good job, he has no ability to score her unfairly all he can do is do his job well.
It's more similar to telling a mechanic they can't date someone whose car they repair than a uni professor sleeping with his freshmen students. It's more employee/customer than professor/student. Where's the power differential?
silverbutton1:
So if your daughter, who was in her late twenties, came home with a man that is her teacher in a language center environ....you would shoot his balls off. You are a moron. They both are consenting adults, and he is not in a position of authority. Get your moral/ethical compass on straight.
ScotsAlan:
I apologise for my florid language. Of course I don't prescribe violence , no matter what the situation.
Language mill and adult student. It's still a professional relationship. If you go out for a group meal and find you fancy an adult student, then fine, have a relationship. But I reckon the professional relationship should stop. He or she should get another teacher.
A teacher is a professional, same as a doctor or a priest (Ahem). There are rules in place to prevent abuse of trust.
If you are a teacher at school A, and you are out and about and meet a student from school B, then no problem. There is no professional relationship between you. You are just two individuals.
But as soon as you are paid to teach someone, the situation if different.
BHGAL:
moral high ground my ass! f*** 'em and feed 'em fish. honestly, teacher - student, I gotta say over 25 (maybe even 28-30 these days) and then nobodys business but their own. I left home at 18 and I left my son when he was 18. Way too early these days, I know that now. didn't then, and I was 55. at 15 I still remember "ogling" and winking at my grade 11 foods teacher (23-25?). wasn't apples I left on her desk incognito, it was joints.
Sure, though it's better if you do it at an adult training center, often students are there for only short terms and once they finish... well they are not your students anymore so no problem. It's trickier at university, as you know love can quickly turn to hate and students are there for years so you will keep seeing them and maybe you will even have teach them again later. Also, most students at university are there because their parents wanted them to enroll and once mom and dad hear about the foreign devil teacher banging their little daughter they could go to the dean raging and demand that you get fired. It's pretty extreme but it can happen.
the problem is in china this is not a big deal unless someone complains, i know plenty of male chinese managers at schools that were dipping in the honeypot of female teachers, but i suspect if a foreigner did the same thing, a double standard would be obvious, with camera phones everywhere now, this seems a little suicidal for career advancement, but this is china.
Englteachted:
Very good point, in China there is no rule of law, the family can sue you and the school if she is upset for any reason. This applies to training schools too.
It depends on the situation. Training school teacher and adult student, no problem. Personally, I don't mix business with pleasure but I see nothing wrong with it.
University student dating grad students or senior students, unprofessional and unethical but I don't care.
University teacher dating freshmen or sophomores, I wouldn't talk to you except hi and bye. But is it despicable??? No, I'm not strongly against it.
Any adult with a child (under 18) , I'll rat him out in order to avoid dealing with him myself.
Notice I always said 'he', if the teacher is a woman who cares as long as the male student is over 14.
ambivalentmace:
yes, i always get a kick out of the bs of a female hottie teacher seducing a young impressionable male and ruining his life, my first reaction is why not me at 14, i was born in the wrong generation, yes female teacher i will still respect you in the morning, please be gentle.
Chhris:
What about being a teacher at the university and dating a student there who is not your student?
mArtiAn:
I don't agree there, sex with a fourteen year old is rape, regardless of the chemical reaction that causes an erection, a fourteen year old quite likely has invested himself emotionally in his relationship with his teacher and for this reason may be easily manipulated. I mean don't get me wrong, I wish my art teacher had manipulated me when I was fourteen, she was built like a porn star, but as a rule it should be taken as seriously as a male teacher seducing a 14 year old girl. If a female teacher seduced either of my sons at age 14 I'd shoot her in the vagina with a machine gun.
Englteachted:
When I was 14 I would have killed to be with one of my teachers. She was hot.
I agree with Scots at this one.
The imperatives are drawn for the purpose of not to be crossed.
World is certainly not B&W but once you draw the line which 'discussable' so sooner or later you start compromising.
The first compromise is:
1) OK - not the school student but evening classes are fine
going probably on with:
2) OK - not the teenage school student but adult one - over twenty - is OK
I can easily imagine another step as:
3) If we both love each other and when the age difference is not big (the teacher can be in early twenties) so why the hack not
And it can then come to the last point:
4) She likes me and she acts on her free will. Why should I limit her free will
Result is 30+, 40+ man having an affair with his under twenty years old student.
Also the bank CEO could use the same interpretation - I do not give my employee any favor and we both like each other so why not.
And therefore imperative was drawn:
No sex affair with people under your authority. You want to have an affair with such a person, fair enough - quit!
Englteachted:
Do you understand English? 'Imperatives'? You say the world is not Black and White then you say if lines are discussable .... That's what B&W means!!!!
mArtiAn:
I disagree, there is an age of consent, an age at which a person is considered an adult, and once a person reaches that point it is their business and no-one else's what they do with their body, regardless of wether it is with a university professor or a CEO. If you wish to argue that the professor or CEO has an influence of power over the situation, that's neither here nor there, half the people on this board are in relationships that were influenced by their favourable financial status, making such choices is a woman's prerogative (I say 'woman' because we somehow place them in a position of increased emotional or intellectual vulnerability, a guy banging his boss or professor is of course considered a champion). Bottom line is it's only wrong for a professor to have sexual relations with an adult student because.....yeugh......it's just fucking icky.
Janosik:
I am always wondering why some people believe that being aggressive is an argument ...
Nevermind.
What I meant that those imperatives are, at least in Western society, relatively few.
And they are there for the purpose.
And by the example I tried to illustrate why such imperative that you simply do not sleep with your subordinates makes sense.
Clear now?
Janosik:
@MartiAn
It's actually very difficult to judge when the person takes the advantage of the situation and when it's free will of both parties.
And just because it's so difficult to distinguish it so the Western society set up such an imperative.
I agree with you that it may not be fully applicable to all English teachers in China.
Frequently their position is not a position of authority or influence (however sometime it is).
Again difficult to decide.
And exactly due to that we have this imperative in place.
mArtiAn:
Well rules is rules, I wouldn't have argued if my boss had found out and fired me but he didn't, he found out and gave me a clap on the back. So I got the clap off both of them, that's got to be value for money.
It's unprofessional as I think , if you really like your student , wait till he or she graduates your class and then date later.
Moral Absolutism - it has always been, and always will be, 'wrong' for a person in a position of authority over another to engage in sexual conduct with that person. This is regardless of age, epoch, specifics of the 'professional' relationship, and thus, there is no difference between a teacher in a school and their student... or 15,000 years ago when a tribal elder was teaching an younger member of the clan to do something. The situation does not matter, (other than the ability to make conscientious choices) the age doesn't matter, and the actual instruction and form of payment doesn't matter.
Moral Relativism - every time, in every circumstance, in every age and epoch, sexual conduct between persons in a position of authority and their subordinate is dictated by local, time-dependent considerations.
Janosik's point is basically that there are some situations which may be considered 'wrong', and so current societies have put stops in place - rules - so that the slippery slope isn't slid down. This does not mean that it would be 'wrong' to have sex with a student - only that there are certain lines that are blurred, and society prefers black and white (perhaps needs black and white) to function easily.
I can contribute two things, neither involving teacher/student so unrelated to the question.
When I was a young fella working in a supermarket my supervisor seduced me not once, but thrice. One time in the driveway of my house in the early hours of the morning. In the morning my father told me I shouldn't have done that as it was possible it could have been Mum who'd seen us instead of him.
The other thing is that my student's mother made me have sex with her down on the beach near Taiwan Lu in Qingdao.
Neither of these occurrences have had any negative repercussions. For me anyway.
Did you sell the stories to Picture magazine?royceH:
Welll..... you know how it goes, cob. The girl can easily be the winner if that's what she wants to do. Frankly, I was as surprised as the next chap.
the only problem I could see is if you were at obedience school 
Cub you want to get that one?
Not to answer the question, but an observation.
It seems interesting how many folk that pass through here either don't see themselves as real teachers, or the trolls and wumaos don't see us as real teachers. In this instance, is there really a barrier to cross?
Is there a difference between language teachers at a mill with absolutely no power over the student vs. a real teacher at an International (note the capital 'I') school?
My ex-wife lost her virginity to her (Chinese) Middle School teacher and faithfully visits him every Spring Festival.
Parents prostitute themselves to Principals all the time to get their kids into the "best" schools.
As others have said, at which point does one draw the line as to who has power over whom? Ever see 'The Crush'? 'The Graduate'? Western films also explore the barriers.
I do not think it's right for a teacher to date a student at the school in which they are employed, but I certainly see the potential for such a situation due to the remoteness of some schools, the high amount of hours that Chinese schools try to force the FT into spending with his/her charges, and those FTs who purposely isolate themselves in small towns hoping to avoid other foreigners yet trap themselves into having no one else to "talk to" save their students...and "familiarity breeds attempt" to twist a phrase.
royceH:
Hey Sino, you old bastard. I reckon that's your best effort ever.
You are a most interesting individual. Not necessarily the old nark you might previously have seemed to be.
Let's have a beer one afternoon and discuss important issues. You know, footy, cricket, world dominance and various other stuff.
I initially nominated you as a prospective ECC mod. but was slightly put off by your cantankerousness, so opted to nominate Sorrel instead.
However, if you are now one of the mods, well, ok. I can accept that.
Sinobear:
I too suggested Sorrel, Xunliang (although I don't trust cats) and Xinyuren (X-marks the spot, I guess).
No moderation for me...too extreme and I wouldn't be able to find a big enough hat.
