Robk:

I agree with your actions. Doing something that endangers others should never be a tolerant part of any culture... but taking the time to understand the meaning behind the actions can help you to solve them. 

Like bad parenting, selfish-ness, not understanding the dangers... and generally being a little self-entitled prick lol

seansarto:

it's nowhere's near Rome...

Englteachted:

So should we lie and cheat?

Should we ignore rules and laws?

Should we shit on the street?

Should we harass females at work, buses and our students?

Should we stare at Chinese and point and laugh and take photos?

Should foreign teachers be lazy, and don't plan classes carefully?

awaiting your answers!

Curiousdude:

fool ted, its useless answerin’ as obviously logic confuses a colossal waste like u livin' in a 'hate all abt china' world.

Timtimtim:

My Chinese friends are much more genuine and likable than the foreign people here that's for sure. Ted is just racist ignore him.

Curiousdude:

thts tru, timtimtim.

Englteachted:

You say all of that but yet you can't answer these simple relevant questions based on your statement.

estern:

I was going to write almost the same as you before reading you post, so have an up-vote. It's a shame that by far the most sensible post here has more down votes than up.

xinyuren:

LOL, you've been here for awhile so you know common sense and introspection have no place in this forum.  This place is about bashing the Chinese.

estern:

Yep! I had a fairly long break from this forum as I found it to be all just a bit depressing. I feel another one coming on soon...

Robk:

This is a good answer. But it just takes time for people to start to comprehend differences rather than just quickly demonizing them. 

Let's take an example and go with the Chinese birthday. 

We all know that on that date, a Chinese person normally takes out his/her friends for dinner and activities and pay for all of them. 

When a Westerner heard this, they answered "That's just weird... a great way to go broke and having a horrible birthday..." 

But then I told them... well actually, I kind of like it better. Why? 

1) Because you know your birthday is coming and you can plan your expenses for the occasion, unlike for friends and family that commonly come up as surprises (can't remember everyone's birthday) and you feel guilty if you don't get them something. 

2) For the entire year, you just have to worry about YOUR birthday celebration. Simply just worrying about missing everyone's birthday and not getting gifts can be stressful... don't need to worry about hurt feelings. 

3) Since you are paying for it, you can better control who shows up at the event. Most likely it is just close family and relatives rather than a bunch of people you don't know that feel obligated to get you a crappy gift or just freeload on the event. This would make it a more special event for me. 

It is too bad that many people are so quick to judge and stamp situations or events with either "approved" or "denied" instead of genuinely trying to understand. 

xinyuren:

Thats a good example and I have also had several similar "revelations" about common Chinese behaviour. Sometimes if you think Chinese thinking is backwards, we should try turning our head upside down and see what their view is about. We might learn something.

xinyuren:

seansarto:

xinyuren: Can't change chinese behavior?..Most certainly can...Define "chinese"...I have seen plenty of human beings with the physiological identity of being "chinese" live by progressive values...The chinese-American is a beautiful example....So it seems it is a "nationalist" cultural identity that you are referring to as some sort of miraculous impenetrable trait of conditioning...bullsh*t...That's an easy fix. Don't pretend it's not...There can be no tolerance for harmful behavior and abusive relations..... When there is it usually portends the assistance of some kind of psychosis...

xinyuren:

@seansarto - Not only can't we change Chinese behaviour (nor their culture), neither can we change anyone elses behavior (short of brainwashing). People are individuals and will only change if they choose to. In the case of China (which is the OP's topic), it isn't even our place to try to change them. They employ foreigners to fill a place in society where they see a need. They don't require us and didn't ask us to change them. If Chinese thinking will be changed, the Chinese people are the ones who have to do it.

Englteachted:

Xinyu: Facts: Beijing is not as littered with people feces as it was 10 years ago. Why? Influence of foreigners

Many cities like Guangzhou outlawed spitting in the streets. Why? Foreign influence.

Many women are unwilling to accept second class status simply because they are women. Why? Foreign influence.

You post the definitions of tolerate and condone. I said tolerating bad behavior is condoning it. You're contradicted by the very definition you posted!Accepting bad behavior is condoning. What does accepting mean? Liberals and Conservatives are idiots you are proof to half of that statement. You can't think. You can't apply information . You can't observe reality. You just cling and regurgitate liberal doctrine. 

Englteachted:

from websters (because you're incapable of thinking):

Adj.

1.

accepting - tolerating without protest; "always more accepting of coaching suggestion thanher teammates"; "the atmosphere was judged to be more supporting and accepting" acceptive - inclined to accept rather than reject; "she was seldom acceptive of mysuggestions"

Englteachted:

Actually from

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/accepting

xinyuren:

@Englishted - You know, when you double down on your ignorance instead of admitting your loss of logic, you make it more complicated and stupid.  You don't want to admit that your definitions are plain wrong, so you add a third word to the mix?  Acceptance, though similar, isn't really the same as tolerance.  There is a different tone in the meaning.  Tolerance isn't the same as condoning.  They are totally different.  You claim to be an English teacher?

 Do you have a girlfriend or wife?  Do you have any friends?   Do you tolerate some of your wife's or friend's bad habits?  I hope so, because everyone has them and I'm sure she tolerates yours (like your habit of putting your foot in your mouth).  But does that mean you condone them?  I'm sure my wife doesn't condone my late night TV watching or occasional smoking.  She accepts it.  Now, on the other hand, we are influenced by each other because we want to please each other.  She may influence me to the extent that I will quit smoking.   Maybe she won't.  This is totally my decision. Influence may or may not result in a change of behavior, therefore..  having an influence on someone does not mean we changed them.  Whether or not  the Chinese has changed due to Western influence doesn't change the fact that the Chinese changed.  We didn't change them.  This dynamic of human relationships is obvious to all, but somehow escapes you.  The subtlety of different English words shouldn't escape an English teacher.   How's that for thinking? You should read more often.

seansarto:

xinyuren: You aren't fooling anyone with yer Spock impersonations of logic...you as well as little xi knows well in his heart that "chinese" is a fabrication..It is an idea of a megalomaniac called an "emperor"..china got it wrong a long time ago..and the china of today knows it...and yes..china is very ashamedly trying to change...while being scared shitless of what it means to live emperorerless.....America gets it right...culture and behavior are manipulated...therefore ideology is the natural state of governance...not some douchebag and his kids....china tries to tie it into something physical...big mistake...Do that and sure as hell..It can be and will be destroyed very easily. That is why china chickenshits away when it stirs up the intelligence, reason and wrath of the rest of the world.

xinyuren:

@seansarto  -  You got me,  I can't fool you with logic because I don't know what the hell you just said.  Was it anti-logic?

Timtimtim:

Xingyuren wasting time on these fools. They're both dumb. No need to be tolerant about them.

Curiousdude:

xinyuren, stupid ted claimin' (or is it fantasizin') to b an educator doesnt evn hv basic educatn in common sense. best left ignored!

xinyuren:

@Curious, Timtim - I dont think he's stupid. I think he is full of hate and disdain to the point that he opens his mouth without thinking about what he is really saying. Hate requires a shallow mind that is unwilling to look below the surface and that keeps him ignorant. But ignorance isn't the same as stupidity.

seansarto:

@xinyuren/time...the "master debaters"...it is really a shame you don't see the trite and insignificant minds you have...the fallacy of yer logic is always on display.....you can call it hate but it, will not marginalized nor mitigate your offensive natures..the both of you have an obvious ass-whooping coming..and I have kicked the shit out if Chinese boys like you before who got uppity with me ..so please continue and we will let God give both our due strengths...you should learn how to be quiet men..instead of fanatical bratty little boys

xinyuren:

@seansarto - LOLOLOLOL!!!  did you just threaten to kick my azz over the internet??? Really???  And why?  Because you lost an internet debate?  How old are you?  This is so funny.  Have you contemplated anything that you have written?  I get it, you feel embarrassed, but threatening violence because your feelings are hurt makes you look so...... Chinese.  Do yourself a favor, maybe you had a long day in class today, have a beer and relax on the sofa and forget about the internets for awhile.  Don't worry, I won't be replying to any of your posts anymore. You don't have anything worthwhile to say.  Besides, I'm so scared now that you're going to come and beat my azz.  LOL, thanks for making my day.

Robk:

Tolerance is a virtue... it can help you stay calm instead of an insane, angry and contemptuous mess.

Nobody said being tolerant means you have to accept or approve of anything. Tolerance is the path to understanding and bettering yourself. 

You gain much more knowledge and wisdom through this path than just dismissing various events/actions. 

seansarto:

xiyuren=pure chickenshit...Yer jest a kid if the internet is yer little treefort.

xinyuren:

@Robk - you are absolutely right. People who are more tolerant are usually more sane and stable. Intolerant people in China will always be angry with something.

seansarto:

@xichixkemshit - Didn't even register did it?...showing how much of a phony piece if intelligence you are...so "worldly" what's a matter scared of fighting yer own battles?...what a fn joke ...here's another one to fly over yer head...Wow a lot of Chinese dudes say yer such an amazing master debator, chickenshit....but a lot of women tell me yer not a very cunning linguist...

Shining_brow:

I know I'm late, but I've been away, and only now catching up.

Firstly, as I'll say below, this thing has stirred up crap over things that people find personally objectionable - which I'm not sure is Rob's intention with the OP (although, the birthday example isn't really that much of an issue...). So, Engles is fighting over things that piss him off (pissing and shitting in streets), while Xin seems more focussed on other things.

Secondly - Xin, I think you're ignoring that the literal meaning of a word may not actually carry over into the real world. Sure, there are subtle differences in meanings of 'condone' and 'tolerate', but I think to most people, they'd take any tolerance as a condoning. Ask a little kid whether he thinks your wife is 'tolerating' or 'condoning' your smoking...(find out in 10 years, when said kid takes it up!) That nuance, that subtlety, is lost on most people. And, in fact, it's something that has been manipulated to great effect in the history and politics of the world.

Similarly, the 'changed' line is pretty linguistic in this instance. Yes, we all know that people only change themselves (well, unless it's a bullet or a bomb...). But, effectively, people are changed by events around them. My understanding of maths might bring about that mental change within myself, but it was the teaching of it that actually mattered - and that change wouldn't have been brought about without it! Same with anything else... people don't change without some stimulus!!!

I do also want to ask you - where do you get this idea that you've 'won' an internet debate?? I've asked you that before, and you never really answer it! And yet, you still say it sometimes...

@Engles - if it wasn't for liberal minded people, we'd all be stuck in the Dark Ages (which is rather ironic, cos it was during the Dark Ages that Muslim culture was the best on the Earth, and gave us many great inventions, ideas, thoughts etc that we still use today!!!)

xinyuren:

@Shining - Yes, your'e a little late, but I will reply to a couple of things.

" Sure, there are subtle differences in meanings of 'condone' and 'tolerate', but I think to most people, they'd take any tolerance as a condoning. Ask a little kid..."

I have to completely disagree with you on this.  My wife absolutely hates my smoking and she reminds me of it often.  I don't see how her feelings and actions could any way fall under the definition of condoning. This is irrespective of how someone else views her actions. It is what it is. Her love for me allows her to tolerate it and she knows she will have to continue tolerating it until I decide to quit.  And I would never ask a kid's advice on the nuance of English.  A kid's thinking on complex topics holds no weight at all in my argument.

"... people don't change without some stimulus!!!"

This is correct, very few things change without stimulus.  In fact, I can't think of anything that changes without an interior or exterior force.  But this is elementary and isn't even my argument.  Revisiting my smoking problem, my wife provides me plenty of stimulus for change.  She's been providing truckloads of stimulus for years.  But I haven't changed (wait, I have increased my smoking in the last 3 years).  So the biggest force for change is desire.  If a person has no desire to change, if the stimulus is unwanted, most likely no change will occur.  This was my point.  Desire + stimulus = change.  For the most part, the Chinese are not looking for foreigners to help change them (except for their English ability), therefore it is not our place to try and force change on them. And since they don't desire it, forcing change is scarcely possible anyways.

xinyuren:

@Shining - oh, you mentioned something about I won the debate?  I don't know what you are talking about. I don't recall saying I won this debate.  But certain people certainly lost it.   In my eyes, a proper debate is a meeting of logic, facts and reason.  Each one presents their side and the one with the most persuasive argument is constituted a winner.  Of course, a proper debate needs judges.  Here there are no formal judges, so there really can't be a winner.  But if one of the debaters runs out of reasonable logic and replies with just personal attacks and gobbledegook, IMO they lost the debate.  Personal attacks are the last resort of a loser.

Shining_brow:

@Xin - "Because you lost an internet debate?"

In a two-sided debate (such as this seems to be), I'd suggest that if one side loses, then the other wins... hence my comment on your winning. Perhaps you see that differently. I'm not disagreeing about the 'resort to violence' idea. I'd add to that things like berate, belittle, insult, etc - and not actually addressing the argument itself (in any form).

'Condone' vs 'tolerate'... vs 'accept'.

When we do nothing about a situation, does it imply we do any of the above? Your wife obviously tolerates your smoking. She even accepts it (at least, she accepts that you're going to smoke).

Was slavery throughout the centuries - accepted, condoned, or tolerated by the non-slaves?

If you see someone being beaten up,and you do nothing - which of the above are you indicating?

I would imagine your answer may be - ''It all depends on the person", implying that such things are related to one's thoughts or intentions. I, however, suggest that such a response relies entirely on one's actions. You know the old saying - actions speak louder than words...

WE have the idea of 'tacit' condoning.

xinyuren:

Condoning is the idea of accepting something when you have the authority, the right, and the power to change it.  My wife has none of those things, so in no way can she be accused of condoning.  She is forced to accept it.  Forced acceptance is tolerance.  

On the other hand, I agree with your tacit condoning.  If a person has the means, authority and right to change a thing and he does not, he could be accused of condoning it.  But that would depend on the reason he is allowing it to occur.

xinyuren:

Example of a person not condoning:

I observe my best friend cheating on his wife.  His wife is also my sister. I threaten to tell her.  He makes me promise not to tell her because he wants to do it in his own way.  I agree to give him time.  I'm not condoning.  There is reason for my failure to act.

Shining_brow:

"Condoning is the idea of accepting something when you have the authority, the right, and the power to change it."

Care to elaborate? Especially on the 'right' you include... the 'authority' also is a bit sticky...

The US invaded Afghanistan, as they didn't 'condone' what was going on there... did they have all 3 of those you mentioned?

Do we, as non-mainlanders, have the 'right' to attempt to bring about change here in China? Do we have the 'authority'? We certainly have some level of power (especially at a local, individual level).

xinyuren:

You know, a quick trip to google can do wonders:

Right: a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way:

Authority: the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.

By International standards, if a country is to interfere with the sovereignty of another's, it must be done with the permission of the legitimate government.  Whether or not the USA's invasion of Afghanistan was within its rights or authority is for other people to decide.  I have no interest in the matter.

Our rights in China, as non-citizens, are defined by the government.  Since the Chinese government has made it clear that they do not promote civil rights of its citizens, and its clear rejection of "western influence" lead me to believe we have no legal right or authority to change the situation here.  Some might argue that we have the moral right, but even moral rights are limited by the subject's desire for change (remember, desire +stimulus = change).

Shining_brow:

Dude - I'm a philosophy major! Just pointing to a dictionary doesn't actually make what is written true, correct, nor unarguable! Saying what a 'right' may be does not mean it actually exists! Especially when there is a clear distinction between moral and legal. (as most Americans would know "right to bear arms' crap).

If we are capable of influencing, then it suggests that our non-condoning actions (eg, complaining, lecturing, rewarding with carrots) are a part of that influence... thus making any 'rights' (especially legal) void. And also that we have the 'authority and power' that you mentioned previously.

xinyuren:

I'm not a philosophy major, so those words to me mean exactly what is defined by the dictionary.  If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that our mere presence is an influence, thus gives us a right to try to change things?  I think you're on shaky ground there, but regardless of the truth in that matter, we are still limited by what the Chinese themselves want to do.

In the context of the OP (which is all I am willing to explore), my argument is not that we don't have a right to exercise influence.  We are influencing them, no matter how little.  My argument is that we shouldn't expect them to change because we are not satisfied with their behavior.  It is not our place to expect change because this isn't our country.  

But let's get to the crux of the matter.  The vast majority of "influence" foreigners try to make on bad behavior in China has nothing to do with benevolence.  Englishted and even you to some extent feel you have to get even with the locals for some perceived wrong or slight.  This is a personal thing.  It's about pride.  Somebody smokes in the wrong place, refuses your request to stop, and you need to put him in his place.  Damn uncivilized farmers!  That's what this is about.  If you were so intent on helping them change, why would you promote the unlikeliest method of modifying their behavior?  Because it satisfies your most basic need.  I'd much prefer you calling a spade a spade and stop pretending you're trying to help Chinese society.

Robk:

That's true... it really isn't your place to be a crusader for good manners. People aren't going to just change because some crazy lao wai yelled at them in the streets. 

They will change due to see an example set and decide for themselves.

iWolf:

I agree with you Rob. Set an example!

Shining_brow:

"I keep myself to myself and and am happier for it."

lololololololololololololol...

<gasp>

lololololololololololololol...

iWolf:

Oh look, I have a stalker. That's nice.....and a bit sad.

It must suck to be you.

Shining_brow:

 I post one comment about your post, and I'm a "stalker", "sad" and "sucks to be me".

How must it be if you (and sock puppets) devote and post on threads dedicated solely to insulting someone....

http://answers.echinacities.com/question/sex-chinese-jail-30-day-sentence

iWolf:

" I'm a "stalker", "sad" and "sucks to be me"."

Correct

RobRocks:

smoking and bad driving makes me intolerant,but Im pretty tolerant of most things.I have survived here for 16 years.

my 1st answer is a little wrong sorry I rushed in to that.

Shining_brow:

I'd be horrified in both situations...

When did I get a wife and kids???

xinyuren:

Well there actually is such thing as culture, but if you mean in the context of how we deal with each other's imperfections, I quite agree with your concept.  Each one should be dealt with on an individual basis without all that cultural baggage weighing us down.

As far as your perspective,  it makes some sense.  But the problem, again, resides in human imperfection.  You are basically talking about behavior modification.  In the laboratory, scientists have used techniques to modify the behavior of animals.  Usually its a variation on two opposing concepts, using either a carrot or a stick.  You can shock a mouse for making the wrong decision or you can reward him for choosing the right course.  With humans, this is a little more complex.  If you want to persuade someone, which is the most effective and respectful tool?  Surprisingly, I agree with you on using the stick.  But some people's stick is hard and full of thorns.  My stick is soft.  Adult humans respond better when you give them respect and dignity while you're teaching them.  They do not react well when they are shamed, berated, or treated unkindly.  If they are treated so, there are just too many negative emotions they have to fight through in order to get the point. If we truly want to help someone, we want to make it as easy as possible for them to respond positively. We don't want to provoke them to anger. I know some people find more satisfaction by using the thorny stick, but that's just selfishness in the guise of "teaching". In reality, such people just want to claim some sort of superiority over the other person. This is why tolerance is always the healthiest vehicle in promoting real change in a person.

Shining_brow:

Wow!!! 6 downvotes... too bad I'm not a tolerant person... I'll have to go on a rampage now!

@Xin - Ummm - at what point were we not talking about behaviour modification???

Are you sure you prefer the soft stick approach? I would have thought you're more carrot - "please be a better person - you'll get more respect" type.

xinyuren:

While I was working on this reply to your post last night, I noticed a very strange thing going on.  Very strange indeed.  I very much want to share my discovery, but I am waiting for the right time.

xinyuren:

A carrot can only be given after a person responds favorably.  In most circumstances that foreigners encounter, the bad behavior is in progress.  There is no place for a carrot in such instances.  A stick is necessary..... with a carrot on the end of it.