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Q: Would you still describe yourself as tolerant?
I heard someone say that China 'made them racist' the other day. I've heard that before and I asked the guy (I was slightly tipsy at this point) if that means that he wasn't actually tolerant before, he'd just never been in a situation where his tolerance was challenged.
He told me to 'f**K off, haha.
But what do you think? Do you think that you've become less tolerant in China than before?
Living in China for any length of time requires an immense amount of tolerance and anyone who isn't a complete hermit or gets into fights every week certainly exhibits more tolerance here than in their native country. It takes a lot of tolerance to smile and shrug off irritating, ignorant, rude comments. It takes tolerance to deal with people constantly staring without asking them what their problem is. It takes tolerance to be singled out as "the other" on a daily basis when you just want to go about your life undisturbed. It takes tolerance to deal with infuriating bureaucracy to accomplish the simplest things. It takes tolerance to be forced to cross the street in unsafe conditions and deal with drivers constantly honking, cutting each other off and driving on the sidewalk. It takes tolerance to deal with bosses expecting things to be done at the last minute when adequate notice easily could have been given. It takes tolerance to listen to the same conversations again and again about money and how much everything costs. It takes tolerance to deal with breathing unsafe air and eating unsafe food. It takes tolerance to dodge piles of human shit in the hallway of a "high end" residential building. It takes tolerance to deal with people blowing cigarette smoke in your face in the elevator. Are you still here? Are you not completely miserable? Then, congratulations, you are tolerant! China has made me way more tolerant about day to day life. I put up with things here that I would never put up with anywhere else. It pisses me off but I'm basically content on a day to day basis. So my tolerance has increased greatly since coming to China.
I deal with things like staring, queue jumping, having idiots scream hoolooooo at me etc better than I did when I first came to China so maybe that makes me more tolerant.
I still look down on and hate these things even though I understand more about why people do it, I just don't react the same way so maybe that makes me less tolerant.
Things like crowds, censored internet and pollution I accept as being inevitable and something I signed up for when I chose to come here so even though I hate them I tolerate them. I haven't come to hate them less with time and never will. Not sure what that means about me and my tolerance.
I don't know, what is tolerance anyway ? turning the other cheek ? If it is then I suppose I'm more tolerant. Is it accepting and justifying poor behavior? If that's the case then I'm intolerant even though I let it go most of the time.
tbh66:
The longer you stay and different places makes you realize how ignorant and unsophisticated many off them are. Mind you I have stayed and worked in some very nice places, and my close friends are successful and sophiscated. But the masses at large are unteachable, so you become tolerance of their behavior or you will become insane trying to understand their primal ways
I have become the white incarnation of Buddha since coming to China.
I used to be the most intolerant bastard around but after several years faced with the BIG TEST that is China, I have learnt how futile it is to worry about the usual stressors that China throws at us all daily, I just brush that shit off and go on with my life.
Acceptance of knowing my spirit has been river crabbed, become more tolerant or just don't give a fuck? Dunno but it's working for me.
I am a happier person nowadays.
I'm very bad at ignoring things, to the point it can be crippling. I have a short fuse for bullshit, typical Latin character... I'm not shy of pointing out what I see as a problem, to the point of a being a bit blunt.
China being China, you have to adapt or blow-up. Rather than tolerance, I learned to just shut up when talking will be obviously useless. If a old granny trow her trash on the road, if half of the people ride their bikes counter way on the road while the bike lane is empty... I just let it happen. I still feel it's wrong and that there are no justification for it. If I know I can have an influence, I will act or speak. I still fill the the grind, all that time watching the WTF in silence, so I felt I have to leave China. Still one month to go...
coineineagh:
leaving in a month? lucky bastard. I thought I'd beat you out, but my exit is still going to take months.
DrMonkey:
It's not luck :p It took some time to make it happen, and we gave up Plan A (New-Zealand) and went with Plan B (France). Initially, the plan was to leave in Autumn 2014 and fire the barbecue in the garden of our new home for a Southern Christmas. We will have a Northern Easter instead ^^ Also, it took quite a lot of ....guts... to convince my boss. I will have to work with a team remotely. I'm pretty much expat in my own country, work-contract wise. With the French income taxes, that was quite the daring move. I still wonder how it'll fly. To top this, my wife does not seems to understand what a stretch it is to have all that, her attitude is "I am not impressed", "I do it for you, living in France is a major bummer for me" and "if there's one minor glitch, we go back to China, you are responsible for everything". Pressure, pressure...
dongbeiren:
Best of luck to you DrM, I hope you keep us posted on ECC about how it goes!
DrMonkey:
Thanks ^^ I will still have to be in China a couple of months per year, for a couple of years, so I'm ain't living this place either.
ScotsAlan:
Good luck Dr M. China is one good character down the day you board that plane.
I spent the best part of five years here (just back for a visit as I am working in the UK) and I can say, yes. I am absolutely less tolerant than I was. It's mainly the complete lack of basic humanity and consideration that drives me insane. Like other posters, I can kind of deal with the pollution, interweb, etc, but I cannot stand a whole society that is just so damn unaware of others. Hmmm.
Less tolerant. But I don't think that captures the changes I've been through. I think maybe it's just the difference from being new to the Asian way and thinking/feeling that it is all 'neat' and wow! this is cool, so different from home to actually living amongst it for a long time to where u see that it is bogus behavior no matter who does it or where. That is why I call out people for rude behavior and don't really give a fuck if it is China or they or Chinese or whatever. I still just tell them to stop speaking so loudly in public, to stand to the side as the elevator/metro arrives. To get in line and wait their turn, and I like to give them a loud applause and shout-out when they demonstrate their hacking/spitting skills. I don't give a fk if it's China or anywhere else. I say what I think and that's that.
Flip side of the coin is I have grown to really appreciate a lot of the genuine kindness I've been shown. For some reason that still surprises and humbles me that a person can be that kind and gentle.
I'll never forget the time I was on a bus outside of Don Muang airport in the middle of the night, I had been up traveling maybe 36 hours straight. I was near hallucinogenic with fatigue and had had a few too many beers on top. The bus wasn't going where I wanted it to go and I couldn't get the driver to understand me enough to pull over and let me out. Well, I kicked the door and broke the glass. He pulled over then and up came the Thai Military Police, some of u may remember a long time ago at any place important in Thailand, like the airport, was surrounded by MP's. Well, anyway, I kept hallucinating that these dudes where gonna walk me off and put a bullet in the back of my head. Then the strangest thing happened, they actually comforted me and helped me calm down and then got me on the proper bus to my intended destination. Some of u may know what I'm talking about, about the feelings in my gut.... it was not unusual for people to 'disappear' back then. I'll never forget that act of kindness when they had no real reason to do so. I mean they didn't even make me pay for the door.
Of course most acts of kindness I have been exposed to in Asia have been of the more common, everyday sort, but still.... it is one of the things that influenced me the most about E/SE Asia... the random kindness and gentleness of people.
coineineagh:
Chinese/Asians love a victim. Your situation must've appealed to their sympathy at that time. I had a special way of dealing with a girl who constantly used her spontaneous ability to generate real tears in the classroom, to play victim / get what she wanted: I'd give her a round of applause. My bodylanguage made it clear that I was praising her *performance*, and other students also joined in the applause. It was a way to call out her BS and let her gain face from her performance skill at the same time. She stopped the waterworks after that.
Living in China for any length of time requires an immense amount of tolerance and anyone who isn't a complete hermit or gets into fights every week certainly exhibits more tolerance here than in their native country. It takes a lot of tolerance to smile and shrug off irritating, ignorant, rude comments. It takes tolerance to deal with people constantly staring without asking them what their problem is. It takes tolerance to be singled out as "the other" on a daily basis when you just want to go about your life undisturbed. It takes tolerance to deal with infuriating bureaucracy to accomplish the simplest things. It takes tolerance to be forced to cross the street in unsafe conditions and deal with drivers constantly honking, cutting each other off and driving on the sidewalk. It takes tolerance to deal with bosses expecting things to be done at the last minute when adequate notice easily could have been given. It takes tolerance to listen to the same conversations again and again about money and how much everything costs. It takes tolerance to deal with breathing unsafe air and eating unsafe food. It takes tolerance to dodge piles of human shit in the hallway of a "high end" residential building. It takes tolerance to deal with people blowing cigarette smoke in your face in the elevator. Are you still here? Are you not completely miserable? Then, congratulations, you are tolerant! China has made me way more tolerant about day to day life. I put up with things here that I would never put up with anywhere else. It pisses me off but I'm basically content on a day to day basis. So my tolerance has increased greatly since coming to China.
I consider myself as extremely tolerant for putting up with everything that Chinese throw at me on a daily basis for being "the outsider" without ever losing my cool, blowing up or punching any of them in almost 8 years.
I still strongly believe that talking with each other is the best way to solve a problem, and that laughing them off is a better way than fighting with them to deal with their stupidity and ignorance. For e.g. it still happens that people call me a white ghost, well I call them yellow ghosts in return all the while laughing at them, if they pull out the racist/victim card I remember them what they just said.
Dealing with China and its inhabitants everyday has increased my tolerance, I think I could live pretty much anywhere in the world now and find it extremely civilized, peaceful and easy.
It's difficult being tolerant, considerate, politically correct and balanced. If people here showed the same willingness to demonstrate these traits, a lot of us would have an easier time staying tolerant. But when nobody seems to appreciate the value of tolerance, its effects on society and mutual benefits for the people you interact with, then it strains your intentions.
Compare it to holding your hand out with a gift of friendship, and everyone you meet ungratefully snatches the gift from you, assuming you must be weak or stupid for showing kindness. When we complain, we "don't understand Chinese culture". When we protect ourselves by being less kind and tolerant, then we're "bad foreigners who hate Chinese".
China is the victim of so many self-fulfilling prophecies.
1) If you're shifty and nervous, people assume you must be untrustworthy.
2) When people think badly of you, it's just a matter of time before you become bad.
3) When there are enough untrustworthy people in society, the level of social trust declines.
4) In a culture where people can't be trusted, companies and individuals will exploit one another.
5) If most people you meet would exploit you given half a chance, you become shifty and nervous.
6) When shifty, nervous people are put in government office, their preoccupation with insecurity will cause the country to do strange things.
7) On an international level, such an insecure country makes few friends with such abysmal charisma.
8) Ultimately, this causes diplomatic relations to be awkward at best, creating a justification for all the feelings of insecurity.
9) Fearing its own people, it seeks to keep everybody divided and weak by limiting access to proper education, medicine and freedom.
10) Oppressed and mistreated, the people, weak as they are, have a deep-seated loathing for their own government.
11) Rationalisations and foreign excuses aside, the people know that the government that mistreats them are their own people.
12) Given power, the people would do exactly as their leaders are doing to them. This creates a justification for keeping them weak & divided.
If Chinese understood how self-fulfilling prophecies work, they wouldn't:
-A- Hound their BF/GF with baseless accusations of infidelity, for fear of abandonment. Leading to abandonment.
-B- Pressure their kids with ridiculous amounts of expectations, for fear of failure. Leading to failure.
-C- Use copious amounts of propaganda for nationalism and try to ban western influences, for fear of losing Chinese culture. Leading to the loss of Chinese culture.
-D- Break the bank to purchase lots of trinkets for face gain, for fear of being seen as a lowly farmer and not being accepted by their desired friends. Leading to financial ruin, return to the countryside, and loss of friends.
-E- Argue with service providers for fear of being given bad service. Leading to being given bad service.
-F- Go around making boasts and threats to people, for fear of being percieved as weak. Leading to confrontations that end up in them being percieved as weak.
-G- Being absolutely paranoid about their health, for fear of dying. Leading to an entire Chinese medicine industry exploiting this fear and maintaining symptoms with harmful sudstances, often resulting in premature death.
-H- Submitting to any form of oppression, for fear of confrontation with powers that be. Leading to the powers that be oppressing the easy target even further.
-I- Being fixated on money, for fear of losing access to nice things. Leading to nice things being more difficult to pay for here than abroad.
-J- I could go on and on. Bored now...
TL;DR:
Someone needs to explain to Chinese people how self-fulfilling prophecies work, and how to avoid falling victim to them.
nzteacher80:
Very true. Insightful even. You could expand this into an essay if you liked. My only fear is that this topic occupies too much of your brain.
coineineagh:
I don't get why people worry when you 'overthink' an issue, so to speak. I'm not going on a killing spree. In fact, any Chinese would be unaware of my opinions unless asking very specific questions, and demonstrating real interest in discussing the topic - a rare occurrence.
I love studying Chinese culture, traditions, history and other things about Chinese society. It is fascinating to me. As a result, I think I am very tolerant of many things I see, hear and experience. I think I have a good understanding of why they do some of the things they do. I still do not have all of the answers. And, unless I was born here and lived here all my life, I doubt I will totally understand it. But, I am tolerant of many things. Do I get annoyed at times? You bet. But, in most cases, I try to control my frustrations and anger.
During my "off" days, I will sometimes pull the famous line from a movie (sorry the movie and actor eludes me right now). As I walk across the stree with the green go light giving me the right of way, and a taxi or car zips past me, I like to yell the famous line "Hey. I am walking here". Although they have no clue as to what I am saying, I think it is funny.
And, of course, I say TIC (This is China) more times than I can count every day.
diverdude1:
I think that was where Al Pacino was playing some blind guy, ex-Army guy... but I could be wrong. It was just what came to mind.... damn good movie anyway.
More tolerant. Better at handling situations that would have made me very angry back home. I don't accept a lot of the bullshit that people try and pass of to me here in China. I have learned to avoid conflict while still not forgetting the principles that I live by. If anything it has made me more sure of who I am and the limits of what I will put up with.
One other note about tolerance...why do some expats feel that Chinese need to be tolerant of foreigners? It is their country. It is their society. It is the way they have been brought up to live. We are guests here. There is absolutely no reason for us to expect them to be westernized or to think/do/speak as a westerner. They are not western people. They are Chinese. We are the ones that should be tolerant and accepting of them. Expats need to get over themselves and their western ways. Just accept that we are not in Kansas any more. And, the land of OZ is very different from our own. And, if you do not like it in OZ, click your heels three times and get your ass out of here. The man behind the curtain is still the Great OZ, no matter how small you think he is. And, the Great OZ is in control of this land. Now, cue the music for "Somewhere over the Rainbow".
nzteacher80:
Some expats on this site don't take too kindly to that kinda thinkin'. Be warned.
nashboroguy:
If I actually cared what expats thought of me and my opinions, I would have left China a long time ago. But, since I don't care, no problem. If a person is not ready to read answers to their questions that goes against what they HOPED to read, then perhaps they should not post the questions. It is an open forum. So, be prepared for answers that goes against your personal thinking. I am more tolerant of Chinese people than I am of the self righteous, negative-spewing, expats here. I refuse to "mingle" with expats mostly here because they think their shit does not stink. Well, the fact is, many times, their shit sinks far worse than anything I have smelled coming from a nasty hole in the ground squat toilet.
I am more tolerant than a typical Fox news presenter. Shame really, because my power to influence is a fraction of theirs.

















