Shining_brow:

I get the impression you didn't bother to read (or understand) much of what was written below that section....

icnif77:

It's an insult to Chinese, not Japanese politicians! Edit?

The shrine now lists the names, origins, birthdates, and places of death of 2,466,532 men, women and children, including 1,068 war criminals; 14 of whom are considered A-Class, leading to controversies.

What do you need to read more to understand c&p part?

2ndWW criminals are buried and named in Yasukuni.

That is against International law on 2ndWW criminals.

Abe dismisses all Jap.'s apologies for WW atrocities with visits to the shine. EU wouldn't behave any different than Chinese, if Merkel would go to some graveyard of WW criminals. There would be riots in EU. Femen.org, and no-bra-things. WW criminals in EU are buried in unmarked/no name graves! In Jap., they're buried in shrine.

How's my English? You don't want to see flash cards, do you?

Are you saying, why Chinese are making such a big deal after PM goes to the shrine?

Go study for masters now.

Shining_brow:

Let me make it clearer for you:

"The shrine now lists the names, origins, birthdates, and places of death of 2,466,532 men, women and children...The Honden shrine commemorates anyone who died on behalf of the empire, including not only soldiers, relief workers, factory workers, and other citizens, but also those not of Japanese ethnicity such as Taiwanese and Koreans who served Japan."

Dear Abe - you are not allowed to commemorate the other, 2,465,000 (that's two and a half million) or so souls who fought on behalf of the emperor, because there are 1046 souls that did some pretty nasty things (though, not as nasty as many other figures from around the world - like Chinese emperors, European kings and queens, etc).

Additionally, although the shrine - a religious Shinto shrine - is designed to put those souls to rest so they can't come back and haunt you, and thus make life hell - you must give up your religion because in some ways it offends us.

ps - yes, we're allowed to worship and honour our ancestors as much as we like, no matter what they did.

Do you now see my point?

If not, let me c&p this bit:

"It is a shrine to war dead who served the Emperor of Japan during wars from 1867–1951. This eligibility includes civilians in service and government officials. Yasukuni is a shrine to house the actual souls of the dead as kami, or "spirits/souls" as loosely defined in the English words. This activity is strictly a religious matter due to the religious separation of State Shinto and the Japanese Government. The priesthood at the shrine has complete religious autonomy to decide to whom and how enshrinement may occur." (my emphasis)

icnif77:

'How can you be so obtuse?' 

War criminals are buried there, and visits of Japs PM are no/no, if they are serious about 'atrocities-mostly-I-think-in-China'.

Who cares who else is buried there?

Japs should make a 'big picnic', and rebury/erase the names off shrine of WW criminals, to silence China-man.

Chinese have valid complain by International law. Even Krauts issued warning to Japs about it.

Krauts and Pizza-men apologized for atrocities, and graves of WW criminals in EU are un-marked, what comply with International law on 2nd WW criminals.

Are you telling me, because sausage ('shrine') contains low level of pork ('atrocities'), I'll still be 'kosher' ('we're sorry') if I have few bytes (Abe's visits)? 

I don't think so!..... I'll remain 'kosher'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Military_Tribunal_for_the_Far_East

Shining_brow:

"International law on 2nd WW criminals."

Please provide a link for this... I haven't been able to find such a thing! I have found that many war criminals (and other criminals) get unmarked graves - but nothing about an "international law" on such things.

"Who cares who else is buried there?"

And that, my friend, is really the crux of the issue!

I do! The priests do! Presumably, so do the politicians who go to visit there! After all, do the maths - 1000 vs 2.5million...(using your 'kosher' example). 0.04% of those interned are determining the 'fates' of the other 99.96% of the souls there... If you want to talk about Kosher - then I'm pretty sure the percentages mean you can eat that sausage!

However - I do totally agree with you that this place is used as a political football - by both sides!! And others (when ppl go to visit).

Q: for you - does it matter to you, personally, whether a person (people, group, etc) is formally tried, found guilty, and then sentenced as a war criminal, to decide whether they actually are or not?? Would you only consider it a 'no-no' because a legal system has said this? Or, are you capable of making this decision yourself, and then acting upon it (feeling upon it) yourself?

The logic behind this question is: there are many who have 'gotten away with it' throughout history - Genghis Khan's rule wiped out millions of people! Chairman Mao's reign saw the deaths of at least 30 million people  (vastly more than the Japanese invasion). Would you go to visit his shrine?

The relation to Germany? That's purely political. If they shared a religion (Shinto), I'd suggest the same thing would happen. In my searching for this "international law" above, I found that the Roman Catholic church agreed to give full funeral rites to a German war criminal - and have him buried as per any other Christian (til the protests stopped them).

Religion and politics shouldn't mix...

icnif77:

There is no statement on 'burying WW criminals in unmarked graves' in International law. 

Nuremberg trials:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials#Nuremberg_principles

More than 'provision in International law on remains of criminals' was 'custom' or in other words ''we're very sorry. We'll bury them without any dignity'' -----<Germans &Italians. Japs buried them in shrine!

A 'custom':

http://www.historymatters.group.shef.ac.uk/how-bury-nazi/

Japs are pissing around, when PM visits Yasakuni, because 2/3 of the Nazis (Germ.&Ital.) don't do that. They don't mix religion in it either. Get off the Internet.

Shining_brow:

(Sorry I'm taking a week between responses here, Icnif...).

So, there is NO international law on what to do with the physical remains of convicted war criminals - unlike which you had stated a number of times. There is a certain convention or 'habit' to give them unmarked graves, but from what I've seen, that's so that such people can't be glorified - or, alternatively, have their graves ripped up. ie, let them just lie there.

Ok, that's fine - that's how most do it anyway.

You do realise that their physical remains aren't actually located at the shrine - yes?? Just their names are on a list....

And the list of names are of all those who fought to on behalf of Japan. Thus, question: did those 1000+ people that everyone is uptight about actually fight for Japan? A: yes they did. Thus, by definition, their names ought to be there.

I do agree - there is a strong element of politicisation going on... When Japan gets pissed at China, they'll do anti-Chinese things. When China gets pissed at Japan, they do anti-Chinese things.

Which makes me want to ask a question to you... would you want to see the Yasukuni Shrine destroyed? Or what? What's your solution to this (that is NOT political)?  (REMEMBER,, as I posted in respons to Scots - once a name goes on the list, it cannot come off).

icnif77:

It cannot go off?

'It doesn't need to go off', because 'we (Japs) like to listen complains about Yasakuni WW criminals names every time we sit into UN chair'.

2nd WW criminals cannot/shouldn't be celebrated anyhow anywhere! Hence they won't/can't be buried in any national importance monument. Religion (spirits or flying bananas) doesn't/can't play any role here! And if Japs allow religion has upper hand (as you state that 'spirits in Yasakuni can't be erased' ----> You can have your spirits, but names must go off! Ordinary bleach would work well) than Japs aren't sorry for all committed atrocities.

That's clear to me as 'water is/should be colorless'.

BS story, but in general opinion (mine too) Chinese are right in their complaint to UN.

You're wrong, when you treat Chinese complaints about Yasukuni as 'what's a big deal...'

Orthodox Jew won't be kosher anymore, even if he/she touches pork meat. In other words, if Japs are really sorry for 2nd WW, names of war criminals should go off the wall at Yasakuni, but purpose of all story is to negate and counter 'too big for us' China-man. Very similar to kick in the groin in the honest fight.

Shining_brow:

To answer your question:

"It is thought that enshrinement is permanent and irreversible by the current clergy".

icnif77:

Makes no sense?

The shrine now lists the names, origins, birthdates, and places of death of 2,466,532 men, women and children, including 1,068 war criminals; 14 of whom are considered A-Class, leading to controversies.

The war crimes tribunals were carried out by the IMTFE, which comprised the victors of World War II including Australia, Canada, Republic of China, Provisional Government of the French Republic, Netherlands, New Zealand, Philippines, United Kingdom, United States, Soviet Union. The main problems arose from how the IMTFE used a method of information collection called "Best Evidence Rule" that allowed simple hearsay with no secondary support to be entered against the accused. The Indian Justice Radha Binod Pal found that due to the significant procedural flaws of the proceedings, that the court was an invalid form of victor's justice. As these problems with the tribunals left much to be argued about convicting the accused, and that the living convicted criminals were all released from prison by 1958 gave many Japanese people a reason to believe that they were not war criminals. Furthermore Justice Pal's position was that he found all the defendants not guilty of Class A war crimes, even though he condemned the Japanese war-time conduct as "devilish and fiendish". While he fully acknowledged Japan's war atrocities – including the Nanjing massacre – he said they were covered in the Class B and Class C trials. No judge on the court disagreed as to the scale and horrifying nature of the atrocities of the war.

German and Italian 2nd WW criminals are buried in un-marked graves, for the difference, and 'why are Chinese justifiably upset at Jap. officials visits to the shrine'.

gouxiong:

I would tend to disagree that current commemoration of war criminals is history. 

Such action of Japanese politicians would bring them to prison in EU.

ambivalentmace:

nice to know that the EU has a "thought police" agency, i guess the german lugars i have in my collection would not be kosher to keep in my house. might make start worshipping hitler and start a nazi church, besides a secular society with sharia law works so much better, good to know the ghost of chamberlain is still in charge across the pond.

expatlife26:

I agree it's just history. 

On your other point I think the pendulum is going to swing back the other way we're just at a time right now where we've decided the ultimate sin is prejudice which trumps all other qualities a person can have. 

Right now we can look back at lots of historical figures who were flawed human beings and focus on the good things that they did...it's just that right now being prejudiced is something we've collectively decided is the worst possible thing any person can be.

10-15 yrs down the road it could be different and we can have flawed heroes who are prejudiced against some random group but ultimately positvely portrayed. The way that we can have a lovable alcoholic cop character.

nzteacher80:

Too bad you turned up late both times.

expatlife26:

Right after the anzacs had softened things up for us. :-)

laowaigentleman:

All the gear, but no idea...

icnif77:

 I know....... I looked for International regulations on Internet about burying 2nd WW criminals in unmarked graves, but I gave up. I settle for 'habit' or 'normal' as if 'you're sorry for atrocities, you shouldn't glorify war criminals anyhow'.

And as Shining ('splits the hair') state it's not big deal when Jap. is at Yasakuni, because remains aren't actually buried there, it's tribute to all names listed on the shrine, when Jap is there.