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Posts: 618

Shifu

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Q: You think over-feminized men are a threat to China's future?

I think they are in US and Europe. Maybe it ain't PC to say so but your average Muslim kid from the Middle East and N Africa is way tougher than your average European man, hence I think Europe is screwed and will be dominated by radical Islam.

And I think something similar in US, the break-down of the family has made it so young men don't have strong male role models to emulate, and radical feminism has made it so it's considered "sexist" and therefore impermissible to even suggest that women and men are fundamentally genetically different and thus should have distinct roles in society.

I know old Vlad the Pute has implied this kind of thinking goes against tradition, so I think Russia is in the clear, but what about China? I see a lot of men with manbags in the malls and what not, so I wonder if over-feminized men are a threat to the future of this country as well. Or if the masculine ones are out there operating forklifts and doing physical labour, or preparing for war, or whatever?

9 years 29 weeks ago in  Culture - China

 
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Posts: 928

Shifu

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I don't quite agree. This whole idea seems to be too much of a stretch in my opinion.  One reason is because of all the "masculine" places you listed, they seem to be in a lot more worse shape than the so-called feminine ones you listed.   Since when have Arabic and African countries been at the forefront of leading the world into the future?  How is Russia doing right now?  Men don't particularly even make it past 40 for all of their masculinity could afford them. 

 

Feminism is just another annoying movement that has all of the gullible politically correct sheeple jumping aboard in order for their peers to see them as "enlightened" "smart" and "liberal".   It's not really something I see as taking off completely.  Not every girl will be a true femenist either.  They'll quote Marilyn Monroe on the outside but deep down they are going to be looking for a man with a better job than they have to bring home the bacon.   

 

I'm a bit surprised that in your example you overlooked Japan and the "grass eaters." I think they do somewhat make a slight impact in their case.    

 

I certainly don't see superficial and hollow machismo anything to be admired though.  Some people I have met in China coming from Latin-American or Mid Eastern societies requiring them to be macho were some of the most mentally unstable people I have ever seen.  They got insulted at the smallest things and ended up running into trouble with the foreign population and locals alike.    Americans and others on the other hand didn't have such fragile egos and were able to exhibit less hostile attitudes.   

 

 

 

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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
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Emperor

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No idea but personally I like feminine men, I've never had an effeminate man try to glass me, threaten to stab me, or put a bottle over my head.

Almost:

Kudos - great answer.

9 years 28 weeks ago
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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
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Emperor

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Yes.

 

That's why I hope they continue to be feminized.

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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
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There's nothing I can't stand more than being stuck in a room full of alphas.

 

I always think of George Carlin's festival: Slug Fest.

 

You put about 500 of these muscle arseholes in a giant dirt arena for 3 days with no food or water, just whisky and PCP. You let them punch the shit out of each other, then you take the winner put him on a pedestal and shoot him in the head.

 

Obsolete male impulses from 100,000 years ago.

 

This visceral backwardness is the cause of strongman policies.

 

Think of that midget Putin strutting through the bush with his man boobs out for all and sundry.

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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
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It's the ones donning the Beijing Bikini strutting around with a cigarette in the mouth that are the problem. The girlie-boys, well, I see them as 'mostly harmless' 

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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
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I'd suggest that you need to distinguish between posturing and adult communication. Westerners are seen as 'natural' or 'honest' because we don't engage in these kind of games *as much* as others. OK, i'm probably making no sense. Look up the follwing on Wikipedia to get some insights:

TRANSACTIONAL ANALYSIS is a field of sociology that studies behaviour (or if you have access to Youtube, watching the "TA games" videos by TheraminTrees will be more entertaining). There are distinct personas that people take on in certain situations: Punishing Parent, Caring Parent, Submissive Child, Playful Child and Adult. Everyone has taken on these roles in their lives, often without realizing what they're doing.

In China, women love to take on Child and Parent personas to their advantage. This is so successful in society, that I believe the men are emulating them in this immature behaviour.

Arabs and Africans take on different personas than Chinese do, most of the time. They shun submissiveness because of pride issues, in a culturally-motivated attempt to appear strong.

If you understand how this works, perhaps you might re-evaluate your view of westerners. I believe we prefer the ADULT ego type, which is less about playing interaction games to get what you want, and more about informative interactions.

There's one important value I will teach my sons, which will empower them to become successful wherever they live: "Help others to get what they want, and they will help you get what you want." This will not just help you make friends, but friends which are truly appreciateive of you and value your friendship more highly than any kissasses they might be getting drunk with. The GOOD people will feel a need to reciprocate, try to be useful to you, for fear of losing a valuable friend. Of course, some care must be taken who you involve yourself with, because if people just want to hurt you and look down on you, there is no way to help each other. So, many Chinese facesavers and Arab/African posturing strong men are a waste of time to get involved with - they are too busy playing Transactional Analysis games.

Long story short: With western values, the most beneficial persona to take on is the Adult Ego State. This may make us appear weak because we're not constantly trying to gain approval and other things from the community, but it's definitely good for science and progress, as we define it.

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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
Posts: 372

Governor

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I completely agree with Jetfire. Also, Sam, I disagree with you that the "break down of the family unit leads young men to not have role models to emulate." That theory is not sound because not all boys emulate their fathers, just as not all girls emulate their mothers..in most cases they do the opposite. For instance, my mother raised me, my brother and 2 sisters by herself. And I know of my father and met him a few times when I was younger, but he was not a part of my life and I am nothing at all like him, nor am I like my mother. Although my mother was freaking amazing, I do not emulate her..I am my own person. I do not try to be like anyone else but me. I think the problem is emulation itself. People trying to be like other people because that's what their society tells them that they should do. Those middle eastern countries you mentioned, puts great emphasis on masculine leadership and "masculine strength" so in their society, the younger men believe that if they want to have a good life, wife, family, money, etc...they must be like these "heroes" or current leaders..and these leaders for the most part, emphasis strength and and force..which perpetuates violence.

 

I'll admit, i was, and still am sometimes, shocked by the femininity I see here in the men in China. But do I think it's bad for China? No, not in the slightest. The ones who are overly masculine, I find myself have thoughts about running them over with my bike, or saying something to piss them off so they start a fight with me so I can beat them senseless because they think being "masculine" means being forceful and overtly rude. Maybe it's just me, but I cannot abide rudeness in the slightest. I never had these thoughts in America, because masculinity and femininity is balanced, in most people at least. 

 

So in conclusion, I think the opposite is true. The over masculine men in China will be the true threat to China. Not the boys that just like their man bags, and wild hair colors, and tight clothing. Maybe they will be the ones that will help change China. Give me 20 flaming flamboyant Chinese men, over 1 masculine Chinese man any day.

coineineagh:

"Give me 20 flaming flamboyant Chinese men, over 1 masculine Chinese man any day." - yeah I'm sure you'd like that *everyday*, stud!

9 years 29 weeks ago
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WanderingTeacher:

hahah true

9 years 29 weeks ago
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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
Posts: 1845

Shifu

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I think it depends where you see the "average" European man. This sounds more like a description of the middle class of Europe. I suggest you look closer at the majority of European men the working class. Go to a building site anywhere in Europe and you tell them they are girl boys. How long do you think you will be in hospital for. I understand your point of soft living breeds soft people. You should realise that lots of people in ALL of Europe still have hard lives. Lots of people in the US still have hard lives.

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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
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Governor

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What's your manliness scale? How do you decide that muslims from N Africa and the Middle East are more manly? Beard size? DIY skills? 

laowaigentleman:

Personally I think those north africans are less manly than secular Europeans. Most of them have skinny little arms and haven't outgrown their imaginary friend allah.

9 years 29 weeks ago
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Mateusz:

Right... because secularism leads to an increase of testosterone. Believing that Allah isn't real has been shown to increase lean muscle mass by 20% in lab experiments.

 

That's why atheist China is filled with body builders, and modern, secular, Norwegians are massive slabs of muscle, compared to the spindly, pencil necked, pagan Vikings. 

9 years 29 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

@Mat

 

I'm talking about the psychological aspect of manliness rather than the physiological.

9 years 29 weeks ago
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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
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So your opinion is China needs a lot of tough, macho men?  Is that what makes society strong?  Or is it the caring, responsible, and hardworking lot that contribute most to society?  I vote for the latter.  And are those qualities masculine or feminine? Are they not gender neutral?  I think you're way off base.

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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
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dunno. But a 2 billion population living in widespread, extreme poverty combined with a steadily depletion of natural resources and a societal attitude of indifference compounded by situational obliviousness sure is !

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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
Posts: 1198

Shifu

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No."Over-feminized" men are a threat? Hilarious. Excuse me while I whip up a spinach and feta dip and pull my loaf of sourdough out of the oven. This question sounds like it came from a 13 year old boy. I'd put "Over-feminized" men at number 273 of the possible threats to China's future. Let's list some threats that aren't completely ridiculous: Pollution, overpopulation, economic stagnation/stagflation, property/construction bubble bursts, influenza pandemic, terrorism, political unrest due to lack of representative governance, wealth gap, gender imbalance, corruption, climate change, water shortages, electricity shortages, food shortages, stupid questions posted on EChinacities answers section.

laowaigentleman:

The property bubble has burst already.

 

You seem like a very tolerant man, so why is it you can't accept that some of us just like to ask silly and provocative questions occasionally?

 

If anything it's in the laowai's interest to be underestimated kiss

9 years 29 weeks ago
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nzteacher80:

Silly questions are fine. Provocative questions are even better. I enjoy discussion and debate. I'd hate to think that I was trying to stifle it in any way. I don't think that the question was tongue-in-cheek. I think the person who asked the question thinks that "over-feminized" men are a real danger to societies. There are too many variables to take the question seriously. Back home I hunt and fish. I can skin and butcher an animal and I can scale and fillet a fish in under a minute. I also like poetry and picking wild flowers. I believe in equal rights for men and women. Am I "over-feminized"? I've asked my Chinese boyfriend and he says no, at least that's what I thought he said - he was mumbling because his mouth was full.

9 years 29 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

HAHAHA. Thanks for the laugh, dude!

 

I am a kiwi too. I'm from Wellington. I like fishing and working on cars, but I also like to read old classics. Keats and Yeats are my favourite poets.

 

My questions, for the record, are very tongue and cheek. I've been copping so much abuse for asking them that I could start eating a few pies and then legally change my name to Cameron Slater indecision

9 years 29 weeks ago
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nzteacher80:

No problem. What city are you in?

9 years 29 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

Shijiazhuang.

 

You?

9 years 29 weeks ago
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nzteacher80:

Hai'an. It's next to Nantong.

9 years 28 weeks ago
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9 years 29 weeks ago
 
Posts: 618

Shifu

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"I think the person who asked the question thinks that "over-feminized" men are a real danger to societies. There are too many variables to take the question seriously. Back home I hunt and fish. I can skin and butcher an animal and I can scale and fillet a fish in under a minute. I also like poetry and picking wild flowers. I believe in equal rights for men and women. Am I "over-feminized"?"

No I wouldn't say you're over-feminized. I originally thought of the question after reading a similar post on WallStreetOasis: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/too-many-damn-feminine-men-today

And yes being too over-feminized could be dangerous if - say - you have enemy societies - such as (IMO) PRC or the Islamic Middle East - trying to take over your country from within. They have effectively made it dangerous to criticize their barbaric religion, within the UK and other countries, and the dominant response has so far been to help with it ("political correctness", another expression of over-feminized thinking).

So you consider me a 13-year-old boy for asking this? Phew, I figured I'd be accused of being a far right-winger.

laowaigentleman:

Have you ever read America Alone by Mark Steyn? You'll like that book. It's hilarious.

9 years 28 weeks ago
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sam239:

K thanks for the tip.

9 years 28 weeks ago
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9 years 28 weeks ago
 
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I prefer to be surrounded by feminine men than a bunch of cavemen (or alpha, call them as you want).

 

And I am anything but feminine or gay myself, but in today's world the most livable societies are not populated by alphas, call me when the Middle East or Africa rule the world (gas/oil wealthy countries don't count and are unsustainable in the long run).

2 years 44 weeks ago
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9 years 28 weeks ago
 
Posts: 618

Shifu

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"And I am anything but feminine or gay myself, but in today's world the most livable societies are not populated by alphas, call me when the Middle East or Africa rule the world (gas/oil wealthy countries don't count and are unsustainable in the long run)."

Still you need some level of alphas to ensure your society is leading rather than being overtaken, even from inside. You need a good blend of dominant/passive, masculine/feminine, yin/yang, for a well balanced and healthy society.Too much alpha males and you turn into Yemen, too much of the opposite and you get pwned.

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9 years 28 weeks ago
 
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