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Q: Does anyone understand China's brainwashing methods?
How does the Chinese government keep its students believing that they're a marxist vanguard defending the interests of the proletariat whilst they operate a state capitalist model? I hear there is a curriculum in place in the schools and the universities, but what about all of the people who don't have any education? (lucky buggers)
Surely China wants to create innovators, but in order to develop creativity and innovation skills in people, you need to foster critical thinking capabilities. Does this mean that China's government are content with the country being filled with drones who only produce the bare minimum (if that) in order to collect a paycheck so long as the mob doesn't threaten their privileges? This mentality doesn't sound very patriotic to me. Obviously these old men with shoe polish in their hair are great scholars and intellectuals. My feeble little brain can't comprehend their awesomeness. Please help me to understand, mere mortal that I am...
;-p
Chinese style "patriotism" is created by painting themselves as the perpetual victims and everyone else are the aggressors. Say it long enough and it sticks - like excrement on a wall.
The Chinese have never, ever done anything bad to anyone, so we are told by the Brylcream Boys in Beijing. 
Having worked in a HS, let me let you in on a little secret. They don't really push the Marxist thing very hard. Where you see it is in the narrative they attach to history.
laowaigentleman:
Can you expand a little on how they weave this narrative into their history curriculum? I taught in high school too. It was very hard to get any details. I think most of them know it's brainwashing and that foreigners think it's weird.
They're probably told to be very quiet about it around us because it would cause the country to lose face. This wouldn't surprise me.
Read Animal Farm, and then a couple of Lu Xun books.
laowaigentleman:
Napoleon the pig took the puppies upstairs and a few years' later the puppies had grown up to be loyal attack dogs who chased Boxer away. What Napoleon taught the puppies is what I want to know.
DrMonkey:
First things first, I think it's more negligence, ignorance and slaughtering/scaring anybody educated a few decades ago, than actual evil at work.
Na Po Leong told the puppies that they are pure innocent souls, and bad things usually come from outside (Korea is the world champion at this game). You filter your own history, silencing completely some historical events. The puppies are never really made self-confident, self-disciplined and self-reliant, they will always need some kind of big daddy. Information is controlled, made by the puppies. Since anything from "outside" is kinda seen with defiance, you will never trust it. Na Po Leong teaches you that you can't change things : it's foolish. You better go with the flow. Na Po Leong make you very scared of violence, and then associate anything that suits to violence, like being militant and defending civil rights. Puppies grows amongst dogs who went through the same regimen for several generations, so of course it's completely normal and anything different is hard to fathom.
laowaigentleman:
@dr. Considering the problems which raising people to be docile has wrought economically for China, do you think the country is always looking for ways to revise their propaganda methods. I am sure they want to win a few science and humanities nobel prizes. I think the uselessness of your average China worker is an unintended consequence of the indoctrination rather than just an accepted contingency.
They really seem to think that they can have their cake and eat it too.
The only way that Communism can even partially function outside the pages of a textbook is to indoctrinate hard, early and often. Creative and critical thinking are an enemy to this process. I'm not saying Communism is so bad in itself. It's just undoable in practice. It requires human strengths such as modesty, discipline and unselfishness. Few humans have the capacity for these qualities to the extent that it would affect society. The only way to apply Communism is by force or coercion along with isolation from other cultures. The State has no choice in the matter.
laowaigentleman:
Communism is not bad in itself and the only way to make it work is to force people to follow it? Perhaps you should try reading this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin#Critique_of_Marxism
Rather prescient and it's not from an ideological opponent so you don't need to feel threatened by it. Karl Popper is a good critic of communism too.
DrMonkey:
China stopped to be communist in the 80's. And before that, it was Maoism anyway...
xinyuren:
I don't need to reference any critic with his theoretical arguments, I possess critical thinking skills and my own eyes. Communism is a ideological idealist's dream. It can't be accomplished as it was originally imagined. In real life, people will not adhere to such perfect ideals without being coerced. Show me a "communist" regime, and I'll show you a tightly controlled, almost totalitarian State.
Burak43:
If communism is so good in theory, then why can't it be adapted into practice? Seems like a classic case of "shit theory" to me. I mean, communism is a theory how to organize human society, yet it does not take into account human nature (human nature isn't good or bad, it's just human nature) that's kinda pointless, no?
My theory is that the moon is made out of cheese. It's a good theory if it just wasn't for the pesky moon up there!
DrMonkey:
It does not hurt to read a little bit ;)
Bakunin has sometimes been called the first theorist of the "new class", meaning that a 'class' of intellectuals and bureaucrats running the state in the name of the people or the proletariat – but in reality in their own interests alone.
xinyuren:
@ Barak - firstly, I never said Communism was so good. I said it's not that bad. If you know my line on this topic, you would know that I think it's all crap. None of the governments work in reality. All of them have deviated from their original theories. You think America really runs a democracy? None of them work outside their theories because of the human factor (human nature). As for human nature not good or bad? Wow, I have a lot to differ with you on that. Selfishness or greed not bad??? I have preached this ad nauseam, so I won't elaborate.
laowaigentleman:
@dr. Bakunin's view of the status of his new class was quite different to Marx's though. I don't agree with any of those dated ideologies, but I think his criticism of marxism is the most impressive of any of marx's contemporaries.
I studied philosophy of science under a former pupil of Karl Popper. He would go on about marxism all of the time, just like Karl Popper did. It holds no allure for me at all. I don't know how anyone can be impressed with it for a minute.
Burak43:
I see it this way: Human nature can't be good or bad because it's given from nature. It's not "good" for swans for example to have one partner for life, it's not "bad" for ants to have a whole class of workers or soldier or whatever. Yes, of course there are bad people and good people, but "human nature" is not a moral choice we can make, thus it is pointless to argue whether it's good or bad, because it just is what it is.
xinyuren:
@Barak - ok, next time someone jacks your iphone and rapes your wife, don't bother going to the police. It's not bad, it's just human nature. I mean, who's to say what's good or bad? Sheesh.
Burak43:
If you think stealing and raping is human nature then it says more about you really. What I meant, you idiot, is that human nature isn't good or bad on a population level, but individuals can be good or bad. Stealing and raping are both moral choices, human nature is not a moral choice.
xinyuren:
Once again, someone resorting to insults because they can't back up their words. I love this. Where shall I begin?
Rape and theft are a direct result of greed and selfishness (those things which you say are not bad). If there was no greed or selfishness, there would be no rape or theft. Most of life's problems spring from greed, selfishness,and other human weaknesses. Now who is the idiot? I really suggest you quit now. Your argument is stale and uninspired. Trust me on this. You don't know what greed or selfishness is, neither do you know where it originated. Just quit.
shenzhendan:
agreed. Humans are selfish by nature. Our instinct is to look after ourselves. Communism is all about giving up yourself for the good of the whole, which is why communism on a societal level will always fail.
How badly do you think this indoctrination messes up the critical thinking ability of Chinese citizens? When I was teaching high school in Hunan, I asked a series of questions for the end of term oral English exam. Two of my questions were, "which Chinese person do you admire most?", and "what is your dream job". About 60% of the boys said Mao Zedong was the Chinese person they admired most and that their dream job was to become businessmen. Is this cognitive dissonance? Admiring a communist dictator who would kill them for following through on their dream is very strange thinking. Perhaps it's just an omission of information necessary to make a reasoned judgment. I still don't know how so many could think this way.
If their thinking skills are messed up by being forced to follow the herd their whole lives then there's really no possibility of China changing, is there?
xinyuren:
That is an interesting observation. I think it reflects the change in the fundamental direction between Mao and Xi. China has changed to a Capitalist economy with prosperity promised to them. Of course they want to be businessmen!
laowaigentleman:
@xin. Sure, but why on earth would they simultaneously admire a communist dictator who murders people who engage in their dream profession?
xinyuren:
I think you already answered that. Their indoctrination includes Mao worship. The culture has mutated to money worship. If you have zero critical thinking skills, these are completely compatible thoughts. This is how the government stays in power. Through the magical power of ignorance + propaganda
laowaigentleman:
I suppose it's fitting that the fat pig's face is on the money then :-)
it starts at home. abuse and no displaying affection. kids become needy, with a feeling of emptiness that the state is happy to fill. by the time they're adults, their realities are so warped that trying to bring reason into their existence would burst their bubble. religions do this to their flock, but i could never have imagined atheists doing even worse. this is china.
Dammit. There is a really good Chairman M quote on this topic. Can't remember it, but early on, he realized that the Chinese would be easy to control.
laowaigentleman:
Have you heard of brainyquote.com? I will put in his name and try to find it. I always think of Christopher Hitchens' response to Sean Hannity on Fox News about the immorality of atheists compared to christians. Hannity brought up Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin and Hitchens said that you wouldn't even be in the dictatorship business if you didn't know how to manipulate a horde of credulous people, a credulity which was wrought by Russian orthodox Christianity.
I don't know much about Chinese beliefs. They seem to be a well of unrelated and scantily rationalized superstitions. Mao certainly understood his people well.
