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Posts: 703

Shifu

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Q: Is it irresponsible to raise your kids in China if u have a choice?

 

Something some of us may have to think about in the future, and something that some of us have already thought about.

 

Perhaps nothing wrong with a few years living here with your kids, but raising them here for longer than that; is it irresponsible? Assuming you can give them a better childhood in your home country (or spouses) if you have that option.

 

Is the air or food harming their health? (future cancer, or asthma, etc.)

Are they getting enough leisure time, or enough outdoors, green grass, etc.?

Do they have a greater chance of getting seriously sick in China, and how will the hospitals be when needed?

 

 

 

 

11 years 6 days ago in  Family & Kids - China

 
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Have yet to have any offspring, but this has certainly been discussed. 

 

In my home country we can provide safer food, clean air, education that emphasizes free thinking etc. It would also mean more free time/vacation time.

 

The only important thing there is in China for our children is...well China. I do think it is very important for bi-cultural children to be exposed to both cultures. 

 

Wether it is irresponsible. I would not judge those who chose to raise their children in China. It must be possible to do pretty safely, also depends on where in the country it is and of course what the alternative is

Scandinavian:

I can recommend the BBC Documentary "The Nine Months That Made You" on how important the environment is for the expecting mother

11 years 6 days ago
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ambivalentmace:

after 3 years here ,im not sure exposure to chinese culture is a good thing anymore, maybe after 9 more years here i will reconsider but not right now

11 years 6 days ago
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Scandinavian:

once the brainwashing is complete you will not have that concern ever again

11 years 5 days ago
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Nessquick:

After 6 years here, I am 100% sure, the  for raising my son here, is something what I do not expect and not accept. This summer we are going back to Cz to check around all the stuff and we will make the decision, whether wait 1 more year in china or immediately move out of here. As my wife know, that I do not see any my future in China, she find out, that will be much better if we move out earlier rather than later. Also for our son, to catch the language gap and socialize better. 

 

 I was not planning to stay here, It just happen that I find my soulmate here and within the time, we "mature" together.

As I said many times at home, in Czech or other Europe country, I am likely much easier find any job to feed them, than here, and with much less hassle of papers and so on. Here, if something go wrong, even McDonald will not provide me any job. So ... 

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Governor

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This problem has been talked about at length in previous posts I think.  Most seem to concur that living back in their home country is simply what is best for the kids.  I don't necessarily disagree but I would say as a parent you can have more influence than the environment does at least in the early years of your child's life.  Simply thinking by dropping them in a perfect environment that they'll turn out roses is wishful and lazy thinking.   If you have time and interest to raise your kid well I think China can produce a very well rounded and healthy child but only WITH your help.   

JungleLife:

yes, in the end it is the parenting that is the most important, good point.

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I've said this numerous times in other posts on this topic, but to answer the OP, no it isn't irresponsible, to think so really is the height of arrogance.

The Chinese education system has some great advantages and some great faults, as do the western education systems. In the UK for instance, too often education is seen as a baby sitting service to enable parents to go to work, or just to enable them to have time away from the kids.

My daughter will go to Chinese schools until she is 11, where she will get the good work ethic and I will spend time ensuring any obvious bias are minimised, I will teach her that demanding evidence is a good thing, I will also take responsibility for ensuring her English is near native level. The Chinese education system is great at learning lots of facts, the building blocks of later, higher education. However using those facts, interpreting and creating is not a forte of the Chinese so when my daughter gets to High School age we will return to the UK.

JungleLife:

I somewhat agree with you regarding the learned work ethic and education, but perhaps would still be too worried about their health risks.

11 years 6 days ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

There is a lot more to consider when deciding to live in (or leave) a country, you cannot just pick on one area of consideration, THAT would be irresponsible.

 

Firstly we live in Nanning, while the pollution levels are not optimal neither are they as bad as Northern China. (or perhaps Detroit from what I've read).

Secondly, my daughter is half Chinese, I think it would be  supremely irresponsible and arrogant of me to deny her 50% of her cultural heritage.

I have to balance living in China with my only other realistic choice of living in the UK, if I choose to move back to the UK now, my financial status would mean I would have to live in the house I already own, which I purchased as a single man some years ago, while it is a great house in a good area for a single man it is not somewhere I would choose to raise a child, the local school is disgusting and has rampant bullying, the schooling in the UK is pretty poor on the basics, many children cannot read by age 11 let alone 5 as for maths and sciences, don't make me laugh, placing a mixed race child into such a school would be VERY irresponsible. I also have to look at what type of job a 50 year old man could hope to find, teaching in a school? As a male? no thank you, too many opportunities for life halting disgusting accusations, teaching adults, great, but the pay is poor and opportunities not widespread.

Finally, in China my daughter (and my wife) have the support of an extended family network all of whom are happy to help and often do. In the UK we / she would have none of that, my parents have long since passed away and the wider family groups in the UK are much more insular than the Chinese equivalent.

 

No, I am happy with my choice and to be honest, I find some of the posts on this thread that my choice and those of others who have made similar choices as being irresponsible as extremely offensive, put it this way, if we met face to face and you (or anyone else) told me I hadn't considered the future of my daughter and that I was being irresponsible, the ensuing conversation would be VERY abrupt.

11 years 5 days ago
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Nessquick:

I agree with you Hugh, when i put together all your words, you really know what are you doing. and that's right. For us, we have reversed situation. My wife's family can not much support or help us, they are really rural people, as on the other hand, my parents and family in Czech, could help me with almost all.

I am still in the productive age, (34 after 2 weeks) so I can grab almost any job i will see near my hands. Yes, have some pros and cons being in country, which economy is going down for years, but is till believe it will move up. And as i plan to do own business, which will be not just simple trading, but gonna be a good employer with creating jobs for peoples in my area and slowly growing company, employees happiness... my dream :-)

11 years 5 days ago
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JungleLife:

I am not accusing people of being irresponsible. I am just questioning, the same question could come from Chinese to Chinese. I just hope the people who do raise their kids here have thought things through, and looked at the cons as well as the pros. If they have done this, then there is no need for them to get defensive talking about it, unless one accuses them, which I am not doing. Even if I was to accuse, I would sooner do it face to face then online so that I could back it up, but that would only be in extreme issues, like if I met a pedophile or if the parent beat the kids, expose them in public, and if they get fired up then snuff it out.

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Yes it is. Anyone who tells you otherwise is living in a fantasy world that shuts out all logical thought. Essentially, they've been living here so long that they've bought into the CCP mentality.

 

It was irresponsible of me to knock my wife up here, but I recognize that. Was it a mistake? No. Just irresponsible given the current state of China.

 

The pollution itself will very likely cause cancer for you and your children 20-30 years down the road. The asbestos used in so many buildings will cause mesothelioma within 20-30 years.

 

The CCP brainwashing will affect them too. It doesn't matter how hard you try to teach them if peer pressure gets in the way, or if they hear it long enough that they start believing it regardless of what you tell them.

 

Contrary to other people's opinion, there's no work ethic to learn here... unless you're living in some fantasy paradise which I've yet to visit. I think martain and Hugh live in such a place... but I'm not sure I believe it.

 

And then... there you have the food scandals, the utter disdain for human life, and just an overall bad environment for anyone to live in.

 

I'm sorry, I just can't see how any responsible adult would raise children here unless they had no other choice. If they don't have a choice, then fine... we've probably all been in dire straits, but when there's a clear choice, it's irresponsible.

mArtiAn:

  I don't recall suggesting that the people of this city have any remarkable study ethic. It is very much a fantasy paradise though; everyone has their own space bike and we all fly around drinking capuccinos and saying ciao.

11 years 6 days ago
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Hulk:

No, but you usually say you've never experienced X, Y, or Z in all your years here. Either you're too inebriated to notice, or you're living in a wonderful fantasy paradise that I wish I lived in while here.

 

 

You both live in the same city, and you're both saying almost the same thing about it. I still love you though. No homo-erectus.

11 years 6 days ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Hulk why don't you just leave now?

I used to listen to your posts, they were funny in a macabre way, but now sorry, just go, your bad experiences are casting a shadow on your psyche.

Some of us look for positives in our lives you seem to seek out negatives.

11 years 5 days ago
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Hulk:

Wating on the wife's visa and we're probably never coming back. Lately I've been really depressed here, and stopped trying to make light of everything. Anyway, I stand by what I said: it's irresponsible to raise your kids in this environment when you have the option to leave.

 

I don't seek out negatives in everything... or anything. It's just that they come to me every single day in China. You're kidding yourself if you think the posioned food, asbestos and pollution aren't dangerous to your child's health.

11 years 5 days ago
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mArtiAn:

  I haven't experienced X, Y or Z? If you'd care to refresh my memory on what those things are i'd be able to comment further. I can probably guess though. Pissing in the street, shitting in the street, spitting in the street, getting ripped off......what else? It's usually those four I hear people whining about. Pissing i've seen, but in a country of like a billion people those i've seen doing it represent a number so small i'm not sure it exists. Shitting i've literally never seen. Not once. Spitting i've seen plenty, usually when i'm passing a shop and catch my own reflection doing it. And getting ripped off, i'm pretty good at avoiding. Anyway, I thought you weren't talking to me no more, 'cause I like making cracks about wife-beating. Haha, gotta go anyway, the wife's just got home and I want to kick her arse. No reason, I just need the exercise.

11 years 5 days ago
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xinyuren:

Hulk, dude.  They're right. Your advice is biased by your bad experiences.  Most of us aren't having the bad time you've had.  When you stop seeing the positives in your day (not matter where you live), then it's time to change scenery or get some help.  Most everyone else here made a decision to stay in China because there are some positive benefits.   The fact that you still think that us family men irresponsible proves that you've lost your balance.  Good luck to you and get home as soon as possible.

11 years 5 days ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

So Hulk, you're going to take your kid back and teach him / her to be a narrow minded bigoted China hater and deny the child 50% of his / her heritage. Way to go responsible Daddy!

11 years 5 days ago
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Hulk:

No.

 

Our child is going to learn Chinese, English, and my wife's dialect so they can communicate with her side of the family if things ever get better, which I really hope. Our child will learn about the good and the bad of China.

 

My wife and I have discussed that we want our children to learn Chinese poems, culture, history, etc. But they will know the bad as well as the good. I don't want to return until things are better, but the children will never be denied their heritage. I'm very big on that.

11 years 5 days ago
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Hulk:

I'll admit I'm a bit biased in some regards (aren't we all?), but the fact of the matter is that pollution alone is good enough reason to leave China. However, I don't let most negative experiences get to me here. I actually laugh them off most of the time (except the situation with my wife's parents) and make light of them. My sense of humor is a bit warped.

 

But the utter disdain for human life, the pollution, the food scandals, and everything else are great reasons to leave with your children if you have a choice.. I feel it's irresponsible to stay here with them unless you have no choice.

 

In my case, I have no choice as I wait for my wife's visa to finish processing. I recognize my irresponsibility in not getting her birth control (can't wear condoms, don't ask), and I own up to it -- but we both wanted a baby, just like it's obvious most parents here wanted a child, and are responsible adults.

11 years 5 days ago
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JungleLife:

Hulk, the opinion you have is shared by more people than not, Chinese people included. Health is a very important thing, and anyone who denies the increased risks of living in China are just ignorant and wrong. And Chinese people can still have their culture and heritage by living abroad, and someone to tell otherwise is dumb. They can still be around many Chinese who live abroad as well, they can learn Chinese, they can even visit China. Some people just don't look at things clearly.

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I would not go as far as say irresponsible.  It depends on where you choose to live and the method of education you employ.  A few things are very clear, though.

 

1.  China's education system is very powerful and effective:  It ingrains in young people a blind devotion to the state without questioning or thinking.  It is a sheep factory, plain and simple.  This is the way it was designed and it performs admirably.  Some have been fooled to think that it promotes a work ethic (probably because of the abundance of homework).  One only needs to look at the results (the graduates) to see if this is so.  My experience with university graduates is they want the easiest job they can find.  They want the least work for the most money.  Chinese people as a whole work out of necessity rather than ethics.  No customer service ( or lazy service) is the norm.   In fact, China and "ethics" don't go very well together which is another important thing to remember.  A business will just as soon cheat you rather than work hard for you.   Judge for yourselves if this is a better work ethic than the West.  At any rate,  this system rarely promotes creativity and free thinking, so they should not be on your high priority list.  But if you want a tired, mindless, sheep.... bingo. Keep in mind, an uncreative sheep is not necessarily a bad person. He's just not creative... and sheep-like.

 

2.  The environment has a lot of pollution. This can hardly be disputed.  Cancer rates are likely to be higher and your family will be exposed to more lethal materials with people who have no conscience, dumping whatever they don't want in places easy for your child to reach.  It will be easier to get sick in China.  Northwest China is less prone to this activity.

 

3.  Trying to put this as delicately as possible,  If you raise your child here, he/she will be Chinese.  This means they will likely pick up all the annoying habits expats are constantly complaining about daily here.  This can't be avoided.  If you think you can stop the influence of his/her peers, you are only fooling yourself.  It's you versus China.  China wins. That being said, there are many Chinese people with mild habits and who don't exhibit morally unacceptable behavior. The more you control your child's peers, the better you can shape his/her personality. 

 

To say that it is irresponsible to raise your children here is to say China is incapable of producing good people.  Of course, that's a preposterous idea.   If your wife was raised in China, then obviously it's possible to raise a good child here.  As long as you're clear on what you will get from this country and what you probably won't get,  there will be few disappointments.

Hulk:

I didn't say it was impossible for China to produce good people, just that it's irresponsible to stay here when you have the option to leave. It's mainly the safety issues.

11 years 6 days ago
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xinyuren:

I got your point, but saying it is irresponsible is the same as saying there is no benefit to raising a child in China.... that no good can come from it.   If that is the case, then why are you in China?  Is it not irresponsible for you to even live here?  There are benefits and dangers of raising a child here.  Irresponsibility is failing to compare and weigh the possibilities and make the right decision for your family.   You are incorrectly assuming that what is right for your family is right for everyone else.

11 years 6 days ago
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Hulk:

I'm here until my wife's visa finishes processing.

 

Anyway, there are probably some benefits to raising children here, but the risks outweigh them. Do you want to subject them to a significantly higher probability of cancer 20-30 years down the road so they could get some kind of benefit here?

 

Raising them in a place where there's nothing but utter disdain for human life also seems like a huge disservice to them. The risks far outweigh the rewards here.

 

And yeah, it's pretty irresponsible of me to be living here, I'm not going to deny that. But it's also responsible (taking care of my wife and our baby since she has nobody else, and would otherwise be alone). Again, I'm just waiting for her visa to finish, and we're bouncing.

11 years 6 days ago
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xinyuren:

That's your decision and I trust it was well planned.  But I also have a family here.  My little girl is 2 months old today.  We will stay in China for awhile.  In a few years, we will move to South or Central America.  We will homeschool her and raise her in third world countries.  She will have a full life without constricting her to a purely Western influence.  In my opinion the benefits far outweigh the dangers.  She will not have such a narrow view of human existence and I bet she will never be like us, complaining on expat boards about the natives.  OMG, do I sound like a hippy?

11 years 6 days ago
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JungleLife:

Congrats on your baby girl.

11 years 6 days ago
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Hulk:

I don't have any problem with you wanting to raise your family in third world countries, so as long as they're safe countries! Starting with clean air and water... hippy!

 

And congratulations on your little girl, bro! I really believe every child is a gift from God.

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i can only determine that for myself. it is not my job to judge sb else when it comes to raising their children. 

to say sb else is irresponsible for raising their children here would be irresponsible of me.

 

i am not in their house. i do not go shopping with them. i do not go to school with them.

JungleLife:

Yes, I understand that, but what about for you? What would you do if your gf / spouse was having a baby, where would you raise it?

11 years 6 days ago
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crimochina:

go back to my home country immediately for proper pre-natal care 

11 years 5 days ago
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Shifu

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I have a question for the OP...

 

Why are you in China?

 

I find it annoying that many posts are here are critical of the Chinese culture and way of life, sure there are some things that Chinese people do that is hard to accept for westerners but this is what you must accept as YOU are a guest in their country.

 

If you don't like it then you are free to leave.

 

As for raising Children here, I think that there are many upsides such as they will be able to speak fluent Chinese and English both with native speakers pronunciation and tones.

They will also have many friends from other countries (I live in Dongguan so very multicultural).

 

Of course there are downsides such as pollution and food safety but doesn't anyone consider that these things happen in the West also, does nobody read the news such as the "horse-meat" scandal that happened in Europe recently or the fact that the US isn't signed up to the Kyoto protocol simply because they value the economy over the pollution levels. (not criticizing just a fact).

 

So I think that it would actually be irresponsible to raise your children ONLY in the west so they have attitudes such as the OP where they are taught to hate people from other countries and their behaviors rather than to accept that people from other cultures act/behave differently and to respect that.

Scandinavian:

You are right there are many questions that are pure rants against China. However in this particular case I find this question very much a relevant topic among expats. 

On this forum there is a lot of people who have come to China, young and care free, those who have hung around for some years, despite all the horror, probably do like the country, or find something here that keeps them here. 

Some of the expats are so lucky as to find their significant other while they are in China. I would guess in most cases this is not planned. Therefore this whole topic is something that probably will come sneaking up on those who originally ventured out to "teach English for some time" but ended up doing it a lot longer than that. 

11 years 5 days ago
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chenhan:

Well said,welcome to the board,sir!

11 years 5 days ago
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Nessquick:

In fact, the US do better than are the limits of Kyoto protocol :-) Horse meat is not dangerous to eat. 

11 years 5 days ago
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JungleLife:

Some people from western countries may be racist, but I don't think they are 'taught to hate people from other countries and their behaviors' as you describe. I can't say that I have been taught or influenced to be like that at any time in my life growing up in Canada.

11 years 5 days ago
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Scandinavian:

Saying that China sucks is not racist, saying that Chinese suck is. It may be inappropriate and insensitive to say China sucks. 

11 years 5 days ago
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xinyuren:

Finally, a voice of reason.   You are absolutely right!  With the right kind of family, a child can have a good life here.   There is nothing here (that's not present most everywhere else) absolutely preventing parents from raising a healthy, well rounded child.   I see quite a many older people here, so there goes the theory that your child is likely to die early here.  

China is far from a perfect place to live.  But so is the West.  America has more guns than people, with schools being a popular target for would-be shootists.  Do you feel safe in those conditions?  Everywhere has tradeoffs and it's up to the parents to choose the right ones for their family situation.   The most important thing is knowledge and awareness of what China has to offer (and not have).

 

 

11 years 5 days ago
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JungleLife:

To Xinyuren. I agree with many of your points, and you seem to be one of the people who have thought things through. However, in terms of health, you can't look at healthy old people and say that things are not so bad. these old people had better air, food, lifestyles when they were young. The kids here now, don't for the most part.

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I'm going to try and give a more detailed answer on why I think it's irresponsible. It has nothing to do with my "bad experiences"  with people here, but rather the environment.

 

What exactly are the effects of air pollution on the human body?

 

First, let's look at the EPA's AQI chart:

0-50: Good: Air quality is considered satisfactory, and air pollution poses little or no risk

51-100: Moderate: Air quality is acceptable; however, for some pollutants there may be a moderate health concern for a very small number of people who are unusually sensitive to air pollution.

101-150: Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups: Members of sensitive groups may experience health effects. The general public is not likely to be affected.

151-200: Unhealthy: Everyone may begin to experience health effects; members of sensitive groups may experience more serious health effects

201-300: Very Unhealthy: Health warnings of emergency conditions. The entire population is more likely to be affected.

300+: Hazardous: Health alert: everyone may experience more serious health effects

 

 

And look at the AQI map of China many times during the day: http://www.aqicn.info/?map (right now, the quality is much better than it normally is)

 

Some more info: http://www.airinfonow.org/html/ed_particulate.html

 

"If the particle is small and it gets very far into the lungs, special cells in the lung trap the particles and then they can't get out and this can result in lung disease, emphysema, lung cancer."

 

Exercise is important to the development of a child's body. Not being able to exercise too much due to pollution is a serious concern. Having the environment slowly kill your child is even worse.

 

http://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/indoors/air/pmq_a.htm

 

"Major concerns for human health from exposure to PM-10 include: effects on breathing and respiratory systems, damage to lung tissue, cancer, and premature death. The elderly, children, and people with chronic lung disease, influenza, or asthma, are especially sensitive to the effects of particulate matter. Acidic PM-10 can also damage human-made materials and is a major cause of reduced visibility in many parts of the U.S. New scientific studies suggest that fine particles (smaller than 2.5 micrometers in diameter) may cause serious adverse health effects. As a result, EPA is considering setting a new standard for PM-2.5. [...]"

 

http://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/indoors/air/pmq_a.htm

 

"Particles in the PM2.5 size range are able to travel deeply into the respiratory tract, reaching the lungs. Exposure to fine particles can cause short-term health effects such as eye, nose, throat and lung irritation, coughing, sneezing, runny nose and shortness of breath. Exposure to fine particles can also affect lung function and worsen medical conditions such as asthma and heart disease. Scientific studies have linked increases in daily PM2.5 exposure with increased respiratory and cardiovascular hospital admissions, emergency department visits and deaths. Studies also suggest that long term exposure to fine particulate matter may be associated with increased rates of chronic bronchitis, reduced lung function and increased mortality from lung cancer and heart disease. People with breathing and heart problems, children and the elderly may be particularly sensitive to PM2.5."

 

http://oem.bmj.com/content/61/10/797.1.full

 

"When the results of the two large American cohort studies on air pollution, the Six Cities Study6 and the American Cancer Society (ACS),7 were published, a strong association between particulate matter (PM) concentrations and cardiorespiratory mortality was reported, and even though important individual confounders like smoking and occupational exposure were controlled for, a link with lung cancer was noted. Confirmation of the preliminary suspicions finally arrived, reinforced by the publication of the additional follow up of the ACS cohort in 2002.8 In this last report, the mortality of approximately 500 000 adult men and women was followed from 1982 to 1998. The study indicated a significantly increased mortality risk ratio for lung cancer (RR = 1.14, 95% CI 1.04 to 1.23) with each 10 μg/m3 increase of PM2.5 (particulate matter with an aerodynamic diameter <2.5 µm)."

 

http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/content/159/2/373.full

 

"In both sexes, PM10 showed a strong association with mortality for any mention of nonmalignant respiratory disease on the death certificate, adjusting for a wide range of potentially confounding factors, including occupational and indoor sources of air pollutants."

 

 

What about water pollution?  http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=391

 

"About one third of the industrial waste water and more than 90 percent of household sewage in China is released into rivers and lakes without being treated. Nearly 80 percent of China's cities (278 of them) have no sewage treatment facilities and few have plans to build any and underground water supplies in 90 percent of the cites are contaminated."

 

"Water shortages and water pollution in China are such a problem that the World Bank warns of “catastrophic consequences for future generations.” Half of China’s population lacks safe drinking water. Nearly two thirds of China’s rural population—more than 500 million people—use water contaminated by human and industrial waste."

 

"In summer of 2011, the China government reported 43 percent of state-monitored rivers are so polluted, they're unsuitable for human contact."

 

Human contact. Not even drinking. Just TOUCHING. And that's just what they're telling you about... Want to see the water in my wife's rural hometown? Lots of dead fish floating in the waters. In some weird cases, the dead fish sunk to the bottom of the rivers.

 

Speechless: http://bbs.news.qq.com/t-400506-1.htm  - you don't need to understand Chinese to understand what's going on. This stuff starts locally, but soon spreads and affects everyone.

 

In some cases, anti-pollution activists are arrested, killed, imprisoned, etc. Do you really want to raise your children in an environment so hostile to human life? This is just the tip of the iceberg. I wish it were different.

Don't think I hate China (though sometimes I say I hate it here) or Chinese people for a minute: my wife is Chinese, our child is half-Chinese, and I enjoyed most of my time here. Do you know what my reaction was when I saw all of this? I actually cried. Yes, a grown-ass man crying over a country that isn't even his. I pity China and Chinese people more than you know.

Scandinavian:

To those whose comment to Hulks post think. "Ah, but cancer rates are not that high in China" you have to remember that most of this pollution has happened in the last few years. The full impact on people living here cannot be know for a long time. The long term effects are simply not known. 

11 years 5 days ago
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livingfree85:

omg those people in Shijiazhuang have got to get out of there

11 years 5 days ago
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Hulk:

Shijiazhuang has been at nearly 900.

 

Some places have been in 1100+.

 

Actually, Scandinavian, Cancer is now the leading cause of death here: http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2011/update96

11 years 5 days ago
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Hulk:

"In fact, reports from the countryside reveal a dangerous epidemic of “cancer villages” linked to pollution from some of the very industries propelling China’s explosive economy. By pursuing economic growth above all else, China is sacrificing the health of its people, ultimately risking future prosperity."

11 years 5 days ago
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xinyuren:

We use water filters with reverse osmosis membranes.   I haven't opened the air cleaner yet but the HEPA filters will clean our house air.   There are other options instead of  your typical "get out of China" advice. Oh, and reporting the facts, please try not to be so biased. Cancer is the leading cause of death in America also. It is in the top 3 in most every country.

11 years 5 days ago
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livingfree85:

Can't be inside of the house all the time, not even the majority of the time.

11 years 5 days ago
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Hulk:

Most of the advice regarding pollution is to stay indoors or wear a mask. HEPA filters do nothing to counteract outdoor pollution. I'm sorry, but you have to walk around outside sometime.


You can wear a mask if you want, but it won't stop everything. It will help, though...

 

Furthermore, I forgot to post the other information along with that link, where it states there are "cancer villages," (if you've ever watched those documentaries, you'd know what I mean) where cancer rates are greatly accelerated, but I did include it afterwards.

 

As for your water filtering, good. I use those too, but... http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/concerns-grow-about-severely-polluted-water-in-chinas-cities/

 

"the polluted water is often contaminated with heavy metals whose organic byproducts are difficult to filter out through traditional water treatment systems."

 

 

11 years 5 days ago
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xinyuren:

The catastrophic things you site are enough to make a person cry.  I know I have also cried for this country on occasion.  But have you widened your research to include other countries?  If you ever find time to do so,  you will find that this is happening everywhere.  This is not solely a China problem.  You can escape China, but you can't escape the problems that we humans have brought upon ourselves.  Sadly, there are catastrophic consequences pending everywhere.  We still haven't felt the full impact from the Industrial Revolution that began in the West.  Our children will face dangers many fold more serious than we did as a child.  You can't run away from this, Hulk.   If you look at things globally, you will see there is nowhere to go.  Unfortunately China doesn't hold the patent on greed.

11 years 5 days ago
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Nessquick:

Yeah, today is the better day . I was wonder, i can see my office building very clearly when i went out of metro station - its about 500-700 meters. 

11 years 5 days ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Hulk, once again you are using YOUR experiences and assuming they are typical, they aren't.

 

One example, that site YOU quoted, rather than go looking for the bad areas how about you look for some good ones? I live in Nanning, not brilliant but overall quite good.

 

http://www.aqicn.info/city/nanning/

 

NOTE: That is YOUR link.

 

As I said, there are positives everywhere IF YOU LOOK FOR THEM. If you want negatives you will find them too.

 

This is my last post on this because to be honest if you call me an irresponsible father one more time I will no longer be able to remain polite.

11 years 5 days ago
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Hulk:

Other countries such as Ukraine suffer from the same problems... the steel factories and all.

 

I can escape from this, at least from a time, and at the very least minimize it. The AQI in my hometown is "0," and I can see the mountains which are more than a hundred miles away from me. In my hometown, I can swim in the water, eat seafood.

11 years 5 days ago
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Hulk:

Hugh, I should offer you an apology here. Anyway, Nanning is definitely a cleaner city. I guess I should semi-modify my argument to "It depends on which area you live in, and whether or not X factors are present." I'm sorry for taking shit out on you... anyway, you have to keep in mind that the AQI index flares up everywhere very frequently, so the pollution is still present, and will still harm children. Nanning was in the red today. Right now it's still unhealthy for sensitive groups which include children, so my statement about pollution stands.

 

I do think there are too many problems to consider when raising children here, even in Nanning. But I guess it really depends on where you're coming from, and if it's a better place or not.

11 years 5 days ago
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xinyuren:

 

Air quality in cities near me.   Zhuzhou: 5,   Jiujiang: 45,   Xiangtan: 52   Quzou: 77

of course, if I were only citing negative reports like you seem to be...  Nanchang: 135 !

 

Once again, good luck on your return home but try not to ruin it for the people who decide to stay in China.  Most of us have made a responsible decision.

 

11 years 5 days ago
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Hulk:

We're both in Changsha now. Changsha has been in the 350+ zone many times. I invite you to just look out your window now, as I am. Zhuzhou's air quality meter is busted; I've lived there and the sky was greyed out at almost all times.

 

Most of these places flare up to yellow/red and above. Smaller cities have very limited data. It's not that I'm trying to ruin it for anyone... I want people to realize what effects the pollution have on the human body.

 

You can't look at one AQI map and make a decision. They are frequently fluctuating, and the damage is already done in most cases.

11 years 5 days ago
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xinyuren:

I don't live in Changsha.  What gave you that idea? You're the one who posted the AQI map. Now you're rejecting it? Those of us who decided to raise a family here have already educated themselves on the hazards of China. It seems you're the one who's just discovering this information. It's possible to stay here and be responsible. To say otherwise is just being rude. Rude to the native Chinese and to foreigners who have made their decisions.

11 years 5 days ago
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Hulk:

I dunno, I guess it's just that you're always talking about it.

 

I'm well-aware of the hazards, but it wasn't until recently (several months ago) that I discovered just HOW bad it was. You know about the many hazards, but still want to raise kids here? I can't call that responsible, especially when you have far better options. I'm not saying you don't love your daughter, 'cause it's obvious you do. But I really can't say it's very responsible, though it is responsible to minimize all risks, and it's obvious you're doing just that. So, not completely irresponsible like some people I know.

 

Anyway, when I posted the AQI map, I said to update it and keep checking throughout the day. Furthermore, smaller cities generally don't have much data, but the bigger cities definitely have it.

 

Sometimes Changsha is green, other times red, other times yellow, or even dark red (hazardous)... like most cities here.

 

Even far out in the countryside, pollution is there. It drifts over from the cities, or floats down with the water. In the countryside, everyone is using water from the rivers for many purposes.

11 years 5 days ago
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You really need to get out more and read how people are living in other countries dude. You make it seem like this place is a death wish or something.....you can't start pointing fingers right away! To be honest with all the mass killings and shootings going on everywhere else because of no gun control laws you may have to reconsider your training of thought. 

 

A kid from my country was approached by an adolescent and a kid about 14 years of age. Demanded money and the mother says" she didn't have any. Why? Because it's expensive to raise a kid so that's why she didn't have any money and she was being truthful. 

 

The kid then proceeds to threaten her and her baby saying do you want me to kill your child. The mother pleads to the gunman who is younger than 19 NO! However the kid opens fire walks to the stroller and shoots the baby in the face. 

 

Irresponsible? Don't make such a quick judgement people have it hard all over the world! It's not an isolated situation raising your child in a safe and friendly environment! 

Nessquick:

Hmmm ... 

11 years 5 days ago
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JungleLife:

uhm, I never accused anyone. I just raised a question.

Also, that is a horrible story you brought up, but you can't compare in some ways because 'all' bad and horrific stories reach the public in the States, whereas in China most of it is blocked out, it doesn't reach the public. Only some of it is on Youku, or Chinasmack, etc if it is allowed.

11 years 5 days ago
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11 years 2 days ago
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ambivalentmace:

i have met many people who always look at the bright side of everything because one day they realize walking around pissed off at the world does not help much, i have met people who never care about politics and news and live oblivious to the world around them , they usually live to be a 100 years old and the people who concerned themselves with problems die much sooner. i used to be the pissed off one and now i just dont care and have become a very sarcastic smart ass and dont care about consequences or whether im dead or alive in fact, i would love to the optimistic guy or the oblivious guy but i dont know how to accomplish this. i completely agree with hulk and i have not found any redeeming qualities in china but i will persevere and keep looking.

11 years 2 days ago
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11 years 5 days ago

There are cookies, bookies and too many rookies for me to sit here trying to be a hooky! Looky Looky don't call me a wooky. Touchy Touchy Feely Feely Spicy Spicy Nicey Nicey & that's what the doctor Ordered!!

 
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