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Q: Is it time to go?
I have been in China now closing on 10 years. A lot of the old China hands I knew in China are packing up and leaving. Mainly for their children's education or to start a family in a non-polluted location. It just doesn't make sense to live in China anymore when I want to start a family, build up a stronger career and my country houses like three of the most livable cities in the world.
It was amazing to see China change through this time as it was surely one of the most crucial development times of China. I have met some amazing people here and on my journeys around Asia. Some of them on these forums.
Some of the things I have seen:
- few VW and QQ cars on the roads to tons of cars including many luxury brands
- the change in style from "concrete only" residential areas to integration with beautiful parks, lakes and greenery
- the introduction of more western foods, companies and clothing brands
- the manners of people generally improving (believe it or not...)
- from seeing peasants eating next to peasant at the local BBQ to super rich business men sitting next to peasants eating BBQ...
the list would go on and on...
However, some things haven't changed as much as I would have hoped for example:
- China's censorship on the internet has become much worse
- China's banking system hasn't developed towards foreigners as is still pretty rough
- China's education system is still horrid and teaches racism (my friend's kid was made to sing a song called "Yellow skin is the best" for all parents at an assembly at the local Chinese school... one reason why he is leaving)
- Human rights is still pretty crappy (it is getting better but at a snail's pace)
- Staring and whispering has decreased dramatically but like 100 stares/whispers a day to 20-30 (which is still bothersome)
- The driving hasn't gotten any better, it has become worse with more cars and people that don't know how to drive
- The pollution has gotten worse as well with more factories and no real regulations
---
It seems like it will take China another 30-50 years to reach a point that I would consider livable for a good family environment (if ever). So, it is time for me to take my leave and move back home. I may still be creeping around these boards to give advice but probably not.
To all you old China hands... how much longer do you see yourself in China? What things were you happy to see change and what things got worse or stayed the same?
Just remember to relax and let all the bullshit of China slide off your back. I have an amazing patience level and even China was able to test me to my limits like my country could never do...
Take it easy people!
I have gone off the rails a bit recently because I am thinking the same thing.
But my family are back home from abroad so normality is being restored.
Small things send you off the rails...
For me, it was seeing a grandma raking through bins with a toddler grandchild in tow. The wee boy was about 2 years old. His grandma was completely ignoring him as she worked her way down the street emptying every bin onto the sidewalk. The boy fell over in front of me. I picked him up. The only thing the grandma was interested in was bottles and cans.
It really fucked my mind up. I have seen this too often. The total "me me me " mentality. That people can put more importance on a plastic bottle than their grandkid. Wow.
And the kids parents probably farmed him out to grandma because they have another kid they like better.
Wow.
Also... Saw a three on a bike group today. Twisting and turning between lorries... The third person on the bike was a baby. Daddy driving. Mummy was playing " throw baby up and catch"... On a motorbike.
The stupidity is affecting me. The stupidity is beyond stupid.
I am really struggling with the stupidity that I see every moment.
royceH:
The stupidity of the locals knows no bounds and I've said that before. Some people have suggested that I'm vicious, racist, uninformed and so forth. But I really believe that stupidity reigns supreme in China. So convenient for the powers that be.
I have gone off the rails a bit recently because I am thinking the same thing.
But my family are back home from abroad so normality is being restored.
Small things send you off the rails...
For me, it was seeing a grandma raking through bins with a toddler grandchild in tow. The wee boy was about 2 years old. His grandma was completely ignoring him as she worked her way down the street emptying every bin onto the sidewalk. The boy fell over in front of me. I picked him up. The only thing the grandma was interested in was bottles and cans.
It really fucked my mind up. I have seen this too often. The total "me me me " mentality. That people can put more importance on a plastic bottle than their grandkid. Wow.
And the kids parents probably farmed him out to grandma because they have another kid they like better.
Wow.
Also... Saw a three on a bike group today. Twisting and turning between lorries... The third person on the bike was a baby. Daddy driving. Mummy was playing " throw baby up and catch"... On a motorbike.
The stupidity is affecting me. The stupidity is beyond stupid.
I am really struggling with the stupidity that I see every moment.
royceH:
The stupidity of the locals knows no bounds and I've said that before. Some people have suggested that I'm vicious, racist, uninformed and so forth. But I really believe that stupidity reigns supreme in China. So convenient for the powers that be.
Take it easy, Robk. China is an easy place to hang out if you've checked out. Such as for myself. But it doesn't sound like you're ready to check out. So then...off you should go. If you ever feel like visiting one of the last frontiers, give me a shout, and I'll be only too happy to give you a shout. Good luck cobber.
Now that I'm starting the leaving process (greencard for wife) I feel calmer because I know I can exit the middle kingdom. But it bothers me that I think Xi will start world war iii before I get all the paperwork done.
dongbeiren:
It's possible to arrive on a tourist visa and do the green card stuff in the USA if you do it right - I'm gonna talk to a lawyer about that soon actually as I'm trying to get my wife out too
andyinshenyang:
If WW3 does start, it doesn't really matter where you are, you'll still be dead!
expatlife26:
You're an american too right?
Buddy of mine went through that a couple years ago, pretty straightforward didn't have any issues.
Best of luck, fingers crossed it's all painless for you
I have my 12 years of security background to thank for my tolerance at the beginning. I worked night shifts in homeless shelters, safehouses for women, juvie halls, open psych clinics, asylum-seeker's centers and addict houses. It was a mild introduction to people who don't make sense, do illogical things and make bad decisions.
Without that background, i might have been unable to cope with China. I managed to keep afloat, and could probably keep it up a while longer, but my kids are nearing school age.
I've become more results-oriented. In China, there is no room to fine-tune efficiency and stress honest methods. You need to dance to other people's tunes to get what you want, and if you get sidetracked by principles or compassion, you may be permanently barred from ever being allowed what you want.
Back home, people find me a lot more easygoing. I give in to demands to ensure cooperation, where in the past I would risk alienating people if I thought I was right. The lucky thing about people back home is, they don't make more demands because you gave in.
I may return to smalltown China one day. It is nice to be one of the most competent and well-paid people in your area, and pay little tax. The money goes mostly to my family; it's the strong position that is most attractive.
As for the staring and rudeness: I've always been self-sufficient with few emotional needs from others, but China has really tested the assumption that I can get by anywhere. It will always chip away at my defenses, as intended. But in practice, the buraucracy is a bigger obstacle than petty rudeness.
To survive China you need to be a bit of a weirdo yourself and accept that things can run perfectly fine through an illogical process. This is the minimum requirement to live a basic life in China.
Now if you have ambition you also need to know how to exploit these grey areas and legislative loopholes, there is absolutely no other way to become financially successful in this country.
mike695ca:
Yes , no other way at all. None. Ziltch. Please send us a copy of your self help book so we can jump on the bandwagon early before it hits the best sellers list.
Rob, I really enjoyed reading this and I think you do a great job of pointing out the positives and negatives of living in China for the past decade. As for me, my wife and I have decided that we are leaving and doing so soon. I have a very good ESL job here where I can make a real US salary and save a lot. When I return home, I will almost definitely make less in dollars at first and have to deal with a higher cost of living. We are willing to accept this initial difficulty because we would never want to raise kids in China and want to enjoy the higher quality of life that the US offers. We will lose the savings and financial freedom it gives us but we've built a nice financial cushion for ourselves over the past few years.
In your case, I see little reason to stay. You have a marketable skill and could definitely find a good job back home. Sure, you'll save a bit less money but you won't really have to compromise much in terms of lifestyle. It seems like a no brainer to me. So what's keeping you here? Best of luck to you.
Robk:
Thanks Dongbeiren, I have actually done the same. Made a good cushion for when I move back to Canada and I did buy an apartment in China but I am sure my wife and I will be coming back for visits. Either that or I will sell it, I went with a modern contemparary style that all Chinese in the area seem to like (and copied parts of it), plus the location is awesome so it shouldn't be hard to sell if we choose to do that. The most important thing when you decide to have children is providing a brighter future for them... makes decision making simple.
The time has come my like-minded friend. You were a pretty great voice of reason here.
Odd that our first encounter in person wont be in China but life is funny this way. See you in Toronto in a month or so!
Robk:
Thanks Mike, yeah it is strange but unfortunately all my trips through S/SE China were before I met you haha. We definetly need to meet up in Toronto or Ottawa or something.
When caught up in the moment, a decision made in haste can often be the wrong one.
You have given a very balanced evaluation on your time in China based on your experiences, but which will resonate with many on this forum.
It gives good pause for thought on people still making a life in China or those looking to make one.
Ultimately a decision to stay or go should be approached based on personal responsibilities.
The decision to travel to China is not one taken lightly, likewise the decision to leave for good deserves the same evaluation.
Good luck in your new life 
Your evaluation of China is consistent with my 6 year experience here. I have come to the same conclusion. Good luck with your return. As soon as my son gets old enough to sail, we'll be leaving China for the open seas. So three years max and we are gone. I've learned just about everything I wanted to learn from this place.
Good luck to you. I have started the immigration process for my wife. It will have been 5 yrs in country by the time approval is reached(fingers crossed) The negatives of China definitely outweigh the positives at this point. If I'm honest, that point came about 3 yrs ago, but I've stuck it out for family reasons. Furthermore, in the last year I've noticed I drink a lot more which isn't a road I want to go down.
royceH:
Me too, Wagon. My guts is quite big now and I'm finding myself having to decide whether or not to become a Harry high pants like Uncle Xi or just let it hang over the belt.
And yesterday I completed the Stat Dec required to sponsor my wife in her application for permanent residency of my home country.
wagon:
Yeah, Royce. The beers take a toll on us older guys. When I went home over the summer, my buddies were having a laugh at my boiler.
im in hk now after 5 years working in china, best thing i did was leaving. The only thing that made me stay so long were the girls. If wasnt for that i left after a year. I predict people who think china is great to live in is because their home country is undeveloped and worse then china. Life is short, dont spend on a place that ur surroundings have nothing to do with your way of life.
im in hk now after 5 years working in china, best thing i did was leaving. The only thing that made me stay so long were the girls. If wasnt for that i left after a year. I predict people who think china is great to live in is because their home country is undeveloped and worse then china. Life is short, dont spend on a place that ur surroundings have nothing to do with your way of life.
2 years into China and I am kinda beginning to feel the same. However there are certain things that are keeping me here and the way I feel right now I think is just a phase... Oh well!
nzteacher80:
You should go hang out with those foreigners in Hai'an. I've heard they're pretty cool.
SaifMalik:
I work 7 days this week because I am going abroad next week, really busy! But I really do wanna come!
Yes. Many people who live in China especially live in Beijing, Shanghai or Guangzhou go away. It' hard to judge whether it is right or not. As every people may think different from others. If you think it is right, then just do it without regret.
earthizen:
You got an upvote from me for speaking out your thoughts with honesty.
It is very hard for those who don't know what they want, nor their order of importance, or are the greedy 'I want it all', or fearful "I'can't make any mistake" (no face in front of whoever XYZ) type. Every decision is made hard, by themselves, for these folks. It is very easy if you are the opposite.
Living in China was the most fucked up and amazing time of my life.
3 years only, but 2 years back has granted me clarity.
I had the luxury of not having a family to consider...only my sanity and humanity.
I left China in a dark place 2 years ago and have finally crawled back out of that quagmire to live a normal life again.
I am currently being offered a job in China again and I am in a real pickle....do I suck it up and tolerate China for a few more years for money and career or do I save my sanity and say no?
I appreciate your articulate and balanced evaluation of Wonderland over the past decade.
I wish you the best back home...you should settle west of the Rockies...Vancity Rocks!
