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Q: is this racist?

is it racist to believe that a group of people are capable of behaving like normal human beings and therefore be critical of their behavior when they dont behave like normal human beings (spitting, crapping, litering all over the place, complete total disregard for human life when it comes to food and traffic "safety")?
i will draw a parallel 
in the states i have seen some liberals always defending the awful acts of some black criminals and i would scratch my head as to why? then i realized sth about these kinds of people they probably harbor the belief that blacks aren't capable of behaving like civilized human beings and therefore should be excused.

i came to china expecting to experience the  rich culture of china. instead soo much filth , racism (even towards each other), deception and inhumane behavior. 
is it wrong to point out these things as thing that can be fixed or should it be ignored because "maybe this is the best they can do"

10 years 33 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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A funny story I heard once.  An englishman was walking along the road with an African in Africa.  The African blows his nose on the street (like many Chinese do).  The Englishman blows his nose in a hankerchief.  He later relates how "uncivilized"  and disgusting the African is, blowing his mucous into the street.  The African later relates how strange and disgusting it is, the Englishman keeping his mucous in his pocket.  Which person is normal?  The answer?  They both are in their own respective countries.  The moral of the story is to leave your expectations at the door when entering a foreign country and don't be too quick about labeling their behaviour.

HappyExPat:

very well said !

10 years 33 weeks ago
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crimochina:

great point but where would crapping on the sidewalk fit in, or using poison to counterfeit food, deception and cheating at every turn, traffic "problems and neglect for human life" . i dont believe these things are cultural differences. i just think attributing these things to chinese culture would be insulting , but maybe i'm delusional in this regard.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

There have been cases of food poisoning, fake drugs and scandals of other natures in America. Have you forgotten? While I agree that lying is wrong, it is viewed very differently as a form of communication here and I do not pretend to understand it enough to judge. I don't see the problems here to be much more serious than out west, just different. Polution? We've crossed that bridge before.  Our racism is candy coated, our white collar crimes are more sophisticated and I have heard of more than a few hit and run crimes where I come from. The point of the matter being the nature of the problems here is alien to us because the thinking of the people is very different. People forget that China had been closed off from the rest of the world for centuries (and still is in many ways). They have evolved characteristics and thinking patterns very different from us. I believe that is a major factor in what you are insinuating.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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MrTibbles:

Well said sir! And a good story to boot!

10 years 33 weeks ago
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HugAPanda:

Xin.. excellent ;)

10 years 33 weeks ago
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redblusher25:

You are the best! very well said!

10 years 33 weeks ago
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crimochina:

i dont see how you compare what happened in  america to what happens here. the tainted food had to do with neglect and using illegal feed(feeding animals the remains of other animals such as feeding pigs pigs) here it's people using poisonous inedible substances and selling it as food. there is very little attempt by the govt here to fix the problem. and dont anyone say china doesn't have the resources when there is a threat of a protest you see just how much resources the govt has at its disposal. poor care of food is not the same as selling plastic as rice or card board as boazi, soaking pork in detergent to sell it as beef that's not the same

10 years 33 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

@crimochina: I didn't say they were the same, I thought I was clear when I said they were different. America puts it's mucous in it's pocket. China blows it in the street. Different, but which one is worse? It defends on your point of view.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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HugAPanda:

Crimo said: "i dont see how you can say it's the same as in america. the tainted had to do with neglect and using illegal feed(feeding animals the remains of other animals such as feeding pigs pigs) " Not true Crimo. There have been instances, I believe the first tylenol recall in the 80s, baby formula... that it was done intentionally. Maybe not by the manufacturers, and maybe not always to save money, but it was done on purpose.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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crimochina:

my fault i should have said "how can you compare " i'll fix it

10 years 32 weeks ago
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10 years 33 weeks ago
 
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I will give you my opinion for whatever is good.  You may find them to be racists, and in turn they may find you to be something else. 

You are judging them from your standards' point of view, not from theirs.  What could be common acceptable behavior for them, could be totally unacceptable to you.
I do agree a with a total disregard for others' lives when driving, by blowing the horn whatever they do afterwards is fine.  Yet, I still try hard not to judge them when I thing that back in USA  we drive at 50 to 60 miles per hour, and here in city limits is 40 Kms/hr the maximum speed.  Also, we probably have around 100 years of driving experience as a nation, and here is less than 15 or 20 years.
I have found that I am happier if I do not pay so much attention to many details, and accept others as they are, not as I wish they were.

crimochina:

i really wish i could ignore what i see, but when i see an old man crossing the street by letting 2 very young children walk out in front of him into traffic getting the cars to stop by holding their hands up as they walk into traffic. then after the cars stop to avoid hitting the children then the old man crosses. mind you. he at no time whatsoever held their hands. that just pisses me off.

lets remember where we are and how people drive here

10 years 33 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

I can relate with you, crimochina. It sometimes takes all my strength to hold back my indignation when I see things like this. Sometimes my gf gets the blunt end of my thoughts, but most of the time, I just say, "this is China". I don't want her hating her own people.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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crimochina:

yeah i 've always been more of an expressive person even if it would get me in trouble my big mouth got me kicked out of high school some things never change

10 years 33 weeks ago
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10 years 33 weeks ago
 
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I don't think its racist, maybe discriminatory. Like HappyExpat said, I think ones way of life and views can be different from others. You, are wearing your glasses of how humans "should" behave when you see them. Imagine what they are seeing when they see you.

this statement however:

{in the states i have seen some liberals always defending the awful acts of some black criminals and i would scratch my head as to why? then i realized sth about these kinds of people they probably harbor the belief that blacks aren't capable of behaving like civilized human beings and therefore should be excused}
might seem racist

 

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10 years 33 weeks ago
 
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Yes, it is. But that's mostly because to make generalisations about entire groups of people based on the actions of some (or even most), is by definition 'discrimination', and when that group is a particular ethnicity, then the discrimination is 'racist'.

 

As said previously, your attitudes are different to others. You even said it yourself - "normal people". What's a "normal person"? Was a Spartan "normal", even though we would now view many of their behaviours as cruel and barbaric. Do "normal people" leave disabled or sickly children in the snow or wilderness for the wolves? This was 'normal' not that long ago...

 

But, just making an observation about a particular action, and expressing your abhorrence with that action, is not in itself 'racist'. Nor even 'discriminatory'... until you say (eg) "spitting is a disgusting habit, I've seen Chinese people do it. You're a Chinese person - therefore you are disgusting". It's like the difference on this (and other) forum - attack the post, not the person.

 

I think, however, that the argument grows murky when there is an adopted position, and it's not countered in any particular way. For example, if a particular organisation adopts the position of defending the actions of ALL black criminals (to continue with your example), and it is their official policy, then it's fine to say "All members of that group are XYZ".

 

On a related topic - morals! Are you an 'Absolutist' or a 'Relativist'??

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10 years 33 weeks ago
 
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I think the resposes are all correct but only form a small part of the answer.
sometimes it is hard to understand the culiture when it is far removed from what we deem to be normal
and somethings expressed in one language does not translate well to another.and just add to the confusition
I dont think it is racist to report or discuss a act or a mindset
How else do we learn?
if I say somthing about what a minorety culiture in my western country I get told Im racist
If the minorety culiture conplain about my culiture in my country I am told I must be more sensitive to the minorety
I sincerly hope this post make sense

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10 years 33 weeks ago
 
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A funny story I heard once.  An englishman was walking along the road with an African in Africa.  The African blows his nose on the street (like many Chinese do).  The Englishman blows his nose in a hankerchief.  He later relates how "uncivilized"  and disgusting the African is, blowing his mucous into the street.  The African later relates how strange and disgusting it is, the Englishman keeping his mucous in his pocket.  Which person is normal?  The answer?  They both are in their own respective countries.  The moral of the story is to leave your expectations at the door when entering a foreign country and don't be too quick about labeling their behaviour.

HappyExPat:

very well said !

10 years 33 weeks ago
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crimochina:

great point but where would crapping on the sidewalk fit in, or using poison to counterfeit food, deception and cheating at every turn, traffic "problems and neglect for human life" . i dont believe these things are cultural differences. i just think attributing these things to chinese culture would be insulting , but maybe i'm delusional in this regard.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

There have been cases of food poisoning, fake drugs and scandals of other natures in America. Have you forgotten? While I agree that lying is wrong, it is viewed very differently as a form of communication here and I do not pretend to understand it enough to judge. I don't see the problems here to be much more serious than out west, just different. Polution? We've crossed that bridge before.  Our racism is candy coated, our white collar crimes are more sophisticated and I have heard of more than a few hit and run crimes where I come from. The point of the matter being the nature of the problems here is alien to us because the thinking of the people is very different. People forget that China had been closed off from the rest of the world for centuries (and still is in many ways). They have evolved characteristics and thinking patterns very different from us. I believe that is a major factor in what you are insinuating.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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MrTibbles:

Well said sir! And a good story to boot!

10 years 33 weeks ago
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HugAPanda:

Xin.. excellent ;)

10 years 33 weeks ago
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redblusher25:

You are the best! very well said!

10 years 33 weeks ago
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crimochina:

i dont see how you compare what happened in  america to what happens here. the tainted food had to do with neglect and using illegal feed(feeding animals the remains of other animals such as feeding pigs pigs) here it's people using poisonous inedible substances and selling it as food. there is very little attempt by the govt here to fix the problem. and dont anyone say china doesn't have the resources when there is a threat of a protest you see just how much resources the govt has at its disposal. poor care of food is not the same as selling plastic as rice or card board as boazi, soaking pork in detergent to sell it as beef that's not the same

10 years 33 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

@crimochina: I didn't say they were the same, I thought I was clear when I said they were different. America puts it's mucous in it's pocket. China blows it in the street. Different, but which one is worse? It defends on your point of view.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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HugAPanda:

Crimo said: "i dont see how you can say it's the same as in america. the tainted had to do with neglect and using illegal feed(feeding animals the remains of other animals such as feeding pigs pigs) " Not true Crimo. There have been instances, I believe the first tylenol recall in the 80s, baby formula... that it was done intentionally. Maybe not by the manufacturers, and maybe not always to save money, but it was done on purpose.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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crimochina:

my fault i should have said "how can you compare " i'll fix it

10 years 32 weeks ago
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10 years 33 weeks ago
 
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I think all of you have valid points.
I believe that most behavoir (spitting, crapping, pissing on the street) is learned and environmental.  I do not think that complaining about behavoirs is racist, as people all over the world have theses habits, we are just not used to them, and we are not insulting the race or the people but the practices..
When it comes to morals and ethics, this is different.  Regardless of what educational (home or school) or societal norms may be, I can not accpet certain things.
Complete lack of compassion for human life, and fondness for scamming and ripping off anyone you can, are not acceptable in my eyes and most of the world.  Yes, other countries are just as bad if not worse (I will refrain from using examples), but we all happen to be living here, so we complain about these things here.
If I say ALL chinese people have these traits, then yes, this is racist.  If I say that all white Americans are bible bashing redneck morons, then this is racist.  If I say there happens to be alot of these types in the south, but not so much elsewhere, then this is not generalizing, and not racist. (I could continue to list more examples, but you all get my point).
The things we complain about are not reflective of the entire country and its people, and I do not believe anyone here has insiuated this at all.
People need to stop being so damn polically correct and sensitive.

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10 years 33 weeks ago
 
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Actually, it is not racest, by definition. Rasicm is the belief that one is intrinsicly superior (and by inference, all others are inferior) based solely on the color of ones skin. It has nothing to do with comparing cultural norms with other cultural norms.

True story: My wife (Chinese) and I were having lunch in a resturant the other day, and a man at the next table kept staring at me (something I am quite used to by now) and started commenting to his companions (in Chinese, of course). My wife turned around and had a short conversation and then returned to our meal. After the party left, my wife told me that he was tellling his companions, "Look at that American. He chews his food with his mouth closed. We Chinese sound like a bunch of cows when we eat!"

In toto, that was how I was raised. Close your mouth when you eat. But if one hasn't been rasied that way, what else could be expected?

Yes, China is developing, but from what, into what, no one knows. In their headlong rush for fame, fortune, and modernization, many things that are precious and fragile may be left by the wayside.

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10 years 33 weeks ago
 
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I don't think it's racist. Racism by definition means believing one race to be superior to another/others. In my opinion, the very fact that you complain demonstrates that you believe these people are capable of better and therefore are not racist. 

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10 years 33 weeks ago

Before you judge someone walk a mile in their shoes, that way you're a mile away and you have their shoes!

 
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I suggest you to study history of each's country then ask a question like this....and I totally  support civilization.

giadrosich:

Define "civilization."

10 years 32 weeks ago
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10 years 33 weeks ago

I like a snowy Happy new year, rather than a no sky one...Beijing's time to ban the cars---the only solution for the time being...

 
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Just FTR, I googled 'define: racism', and got various definitions, most indicating that the superiority/inferiority usually accompanies the anti-type sentiments... not that it defines racism... (can't effectively discuss a topic, unless we all agree on what the topic is!)

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My definition of racism would be insulting an entire country through broad generalizations, but bragging about not being able to speak the language. Wilfully cultivating ignorance about the people you claim to be better than.

You can't even spell a common word like 喜欢 in pinyin, but you think you have the slightest idea what's going on around you, crimo? You're no more able to judge China than a blind man a painting or a deaf man a symphony. Racism is pretending that you have the context to say one god-damn thing about the Chinese.

lchickman:

What's the deal ? I've seen you make many racist comments yourself, i.e. that your job is babysitting grown adult yellow supremacists ... that's the most recent one I remember. I'm all for calling someone out for 过头 but practice what you preach a bit.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

Even if kchur says something like that, he's not half as bad as crimo lately. Damn, what's his deal?

10 years 33 weeks ago
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kchur:

The difference is, I can understand what Chinese people say. If I don't understand something, I can ask a question instead of assuming the worst. Once I asked some Chinese students if they thought Chinese were genetically superior, by the by, and their answer was "Yes", and they seemed a little shocked that anyone would think otherwise. Why? Maybe because they spend their youths bombarded with military recruitment copy "scientifically" explaining the superiority of their race. It generally compares white people to monkeys and compliments the Chinese on their smooth, delicate "civilized" features. But, see, I have context for that. Because I can understand the language of the country I live in.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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lchickman:

Yeah but what does speaking the language have to do with anything? Is that a free pass? If the people speak English and therefore you're able to understand their thoughts this way, are you allowed to form opinions/make judgments then? Are you saying that you've never made comments or criticisms about countries where the people speak a language you don't speak?

10 years 32 weeks ago
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kchur:

Crimo's criticism tend to be along the lines of "Do you feel your Chinese wife is inhuman?" and "Chinese aren't really people" and so on (both real threads that got deleted). There's a difference between an informed opinion and angrily lashing out like Crimo does.

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All I can say is that maybe you need better friends. If all you see is the good, you're fooling yourself. If all you're seeing is the crap, it's not any better. Maybe you should move to a different city? While I know that there are horrible things...hell, I see the lack of animal rights in the street...I also know some good people. No place is heaven. At any point in your life, no matter where you are or what you're doing, if you count out the pros and cons, the cons will always outnumber the pros. It's the quality of the pros that matter. You need to make some good memories, crimo, all the crap is getting to you.

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No, it's not racist when you criticize the specific people who have committed the aforementioned acts. But it's racist when you criticize a whole nation's peoples  based on the acts of a few.
It's also a bit ignorant to go to another country and expect the conditions and customs to suit you favourably, as if moving between places in your country.
Westerners who come to my country and see the locals eating with their hands and say stupid stuff like,"That's so primitive and uncouth!" can easily get beaten up. Our ancestors were living well way before forks and knives.
In other words, it's racist and ignorant to call certain habits in China stupid just because these habits don't exist in your country.
Oh, and I've seen loads of NFL players remove their helmets and have their way with the ground.    
The world is full of imbeciles and intellectuals, good people and bad people. It's okay to criticize certain people and specific places but when you have a bad China day and end up abusing all the whole of China, then that is definately racist. 
It seems China is getting to you. I'd advise you to start looking at the good things in China. If you can't see them anymore, then it's time to pack up.

HugAPanda:

very well said

10 years 33 weeks ago
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Hey buddy!
I think you may be suffering from some culture shock.  It gets to us sooner or later and hits us differently.
Maybe you could use a change of environment, or expand your social circle.  my first bout with culture shock was aobut 8 or 9 months after arrival and it just hit me! One moment I was fine, eating rice noodles and then the man in front of me just took off his shirt and continued eating. For some reason, this galactically trivial action set of a chian of thoughs that made me hate absoluetly everything here! For the next two weeks i could not see anything I liked and everything pissed me off!
The good news is that it passes.  And the first one is always the worst.  I have had a couple more since then ( I am starting my fourth year here) and to be honest I dont want to return to America just yet.  There are things I love in China and things I dont.  But, like the others have said, it is a matter of difference and knowing and accepting.  Easy? No! I cannot stand the idea of someone eating a dog! The old  man and kids that you mention, would drive me ballistic.
Anyway, that is what this forum is for! Let it out, many of us have been in your shoes. Some have had it not as bad, and others have had it worse.
Try to hang in there! I dont remember how long you have been here. And vent all you want!  If  you are afraid of getting grief from others, you can freely send me pm here at this site.
Best of luck buddy!
GR
p.s. And NO, I did NOT use spell check this time and I dont care!cheeky

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10 years 33 weeks ago
 
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Crimo, what is normal for you in your home country is not necessarily what is considered normal and civilized in another country. You can't judge based on your own belief system, or it is racist. 

I would like to add... regarding the spitting... it's not uncommon to see men spitting on the sidewalks and in the streets in America. I've been noticing it a lot more lately, probably because it's brought up as one of the biggest complaints on this site a lot. Maybe it's time for you to take your thousands of dollars in savings and head home, take a breather, clear your head and then decide where to go from there. 

crimochina:

http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/videos/baby-bodies-discarded-in-river-discovered-in-shandong.html read this

10 years 33 weeks ago
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kchur:

http://www.breakpoint.org/commentaries/3154-americas-abandoned-babies

10 years 33 weeks ago
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HugAPanda:

I could post links all day long about babies/children who've been killed by their parents... Casey Anthony, Andrea Yates who drowned her FIVE children in the bathtub, Susan Smith who drove her car into the lake... to kill her two children, and just a few days ago... a 13-month old who's mother beat him to death because he wouldn't stop crying. How about the Penn State child sex abuse crap going on now, the Catholic church sex abuse cases, the boy scout's pedophile records they kept quiet... the children being raped by family members who never say anything. Then you've got child abuse cases and the kidnappings of children who are kept locked up for YEARS, or sold into sex trafficking. Pedophiles traveling to countries like Taiwan and the Phillipines for sex tours... of kids. These cases are in America. Guess what... it happens in Canada, Europe, Australia, South America, Central America, Africa... and yes, Asia. But you know what, not everyone in every country does it. And many are working to prevent it, to stop it, to wipe it out. You can't hold one culture accountable and spew hate for them because something happens in one place, when it is happening everywhere. AND NO.. I am NOT saying it is right. Not by a long shot. I volunteer with women, children and men who have survived these crimes. I AM one of those children. I can appreciate that you are angry that it is happening in China. But you need to hate that it's happening anywhere. And not hate the culture or the people... but hate the perpetrators. You need to realize that, especially in China, people are fearful to speak up against these things because they are told by the gov't or the perps themselves to keep their mouths shut. Place the blame where it belongs... and join those, support those, trying to eradicate it. You're in a unique position, Crimo. You can plant seeds in the minds of those around you. You just have to do it right.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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crimochina:

but there is a difference american society does not accept it (sadly in casey athony's case the jury did not do their job) , it's acceptable behavior here. but there is an overall acceptance that life has no value when it comes to certain people. (ethnic minorities, strangers, out of towners, farmers, migrant workers, female children)

10 years 32 weeks ago
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HugAPanda:

There was a time, not so long ago, that American society did accept things that today we have no tolerance for. It wasn't all that long ago that blacks weren't allowed to go to school with whites. that parents could beat the ever living crap out of their kids and call it... punishment. Legally. That sex abuse wasn't spoken about. That a woman's role was at home, barefoot and preggers. It's taken a lot of work to change all that. And we've had an "open" society for a long time. China has been closed off to the rest of the world until about 30 years ago. They are still under absolute rule. How do you know they accept it? I mean... how do you know it doesn't make at least some of them cry for the loss of the children. One of the things, as you have pointed out many times, is that in most of the West, we can voice our concerns, change things we don't like or don't feel comfy with. The Chinese aren't afforded that privilege. T-Square. When you beat someone (or a society, in this case) up enough... they are going to harden. Haven't you ever been so frustrated by something that it became so overwhelming that you just had to walk away? They have 5000 years of history, and of oppression. It only takes one person to start the ball rolling...

10 years 32 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

My point exactly, Huggs. We are talking about a completely different mindset here! For example, most older black people in my hometown neighborhood (even my family) hate white people. All white people! But the younger generation is much more tolerant. What is the difference? History! Two different generations with two different ways of thinking. Now what kind of thinking would a people under totalitarian rule for centuries and no contact with the outside have? hmmm? They do not think like us! How could they???? You and I can not even imagine how they think, it is so far from our history. So don't even pretend to know what they accept in their hearts. It is a different world.

10 years 32 weeks ago
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"but there is a difference american society does not accept it (sadly in casey athony's case the jury did not do their job) , it's acceptable behavior here. but there is an overall acceptance that life has no value when it comes to certain people."

See, there's the fucking problem. He says the Chinese freely accept it, but if he knew more than one Chinese word, he'd realize the full-on moral panic that occurs in China every time something like that happens. It's all anyone ever talks about. People scream and yell and cry in the streets when stuff like this happens. But to crimo it's all "ching chong bing bong."

Do you see what I'm getting here Ichickman? He brags about only knowing one word of Chinese, but he doesn't understand a single thing the Chinese are saying, so he just fills in the gaps by himself, and assumes the worst. In this case, he filled it with the most tired anti-Chinese stereotype in the book, one from the 1800s when America was covered in those "Stop Yellow Fever" signs. Back when they were saying whites were a different species, except for Irish, who are actually "Pale-skinned nigros." If he actually bothered to pay attention to the people he's always criticizing, he'd realize what a big complex society this is. He seriously thinks all the Chinese are going "Rape kill little Child! So fun! Oh my lady gaga super cool funny times!" or something.

You know how localla pisses you all off by making stuff up about foreigners that are obviously completely untrue, and just a mix of her imagination and anti-foreigner stereotypees, and we know this because our experiences as westerners, but there's just no getting through her thick skull? That's how I feel about crimo. Except localla is rarely around and doesn't shit all over every single thread like crimo does.

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10 years 32 weeks ago
 
Posts: 2549

Emperor

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I think in light of recent visits to old posts....we should revisit this one.

No...I think you have a valid argument.

 

I think the CCP are racist...but not for traditional reasons...more for control.

The best way to eliminate criticism at home is to stoke the fear of the the unknown, manufacture threats...and a dumbed down manipulated populace is ripe for the picking.

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7 years 21 weeks ago
 
Posts: 1304

Shifu

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In America some urban schools are setting lower bars for passing the black students than the Asian and white students, because the black students are not expected to perform as well as the Asian and white students. 

 

The soft bigotry of low expectations, it's more common than you think. 

thedude:

Yes...absolutley.

 

The same institutionized racism occurs in China...but not in an ethnic sense as much...more a lack of guanxi class bias....City people in China with at least some money look down on migrants as scum to be used...not much difference in the grand picture.

7 years 21 weeks ago
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7 years 21 weeks ago
 
Posts: 82

Governor

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am black and u a big fool

thedude:

Please elaborate..."brother"

7 years 21 weeks ago
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thedude:

Chinese dude in BJ decides to chime in...then realizes he has no freakin clue.

Typical wumao response.

 

 

7 years 21 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

You are trying to convince us of your 'blackness' by speaking in an unintelligent manner. Typical of a Chinese person. 

7 years 21 weeks ago
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nbmlord:

YOU HAVE NO JOB? YOU NOT BUSY? AM A BUSY  MAN. ODE,MUMU

7 years 21 weeks ago
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7 years 21 weeks ago
 
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Wow, that is pretty racist. Admin, are you going to allow this?

thedude:

Wolf 3.0...thou doth thinkith that thou doth protest to much.

You try too hard....have some more baijiu.

6 years 32 weeks ago
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xwirpvps:

hi whats up. 

6 years 32 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Can you highlight what is exactly racist about this post?

6 years 32 weeks ago
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6 years 32 weeks ago
 
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