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anonymous
Q: Whos bares the financial responsiblity for the costs of a z visa?
Who bares the financial responsibility for a z visa? I have just left a decent school (after half a year and followed the correct procedure to resign) for a better one and the old school is saying that I owe them the money for the agent they used to process my z visa? I think they are making this up, but i wanted to be sure...thanks in advance.
10 years 12 weeks ago in Visa & Legalities - China
Don't reason in terms of responsibilities like in a legal or contractual manner, this is not the way it works.
You're only legally tied to what your contract says of course, but beyond that, think about whether your ex-employer holds potential leverage on you or not (release letters, whatever document).
On a side note, think about the consequences of your resignation: did they engage a lot of money into getting you in? Does it put them in a difficult situation? Ponder on the situation, maybe consider meeting them halfway. It's always better to leave on good terms no matter where.
Most schools will pay for the cost of your Z visa. This should have been stipulated in your contract. If it isn't then the disputes will arise. However, there are some schools that state that you will be responsible. So it's best to look at your contract. In any case, if you want an amicable departure and maintain relationship with your old school, then pay it. After all it isn't much.
Rather if they are lying or not just end everything peacefully, that way that old school will give you all of the correct documents. This is a dangerous territory you're in, walk carefully through this situation. You might need that school for reference checks as well. They might give you a bum rap if you don't pay this fee.
Hey I don't like it anymore then you do..But I've lived in China long enough to know how to make the right Chess move and when sallow my pride to help keep my stay, Visa, passport, future and family safe. It's very easy to f**k~up your stay in china in one day, even in an hour. All it takes is a situation like yours..
Pay them back and move on. The term "They scratch your back if you scratch theirs" This REALLY applies to China.
ScotsAlan:
Sorry Ironman. I down voted by mistake. Pushed the wrong button.... bus hit a bump.
WCG:
The truth is that companies really have you by the balls here. They take specific measures to make it not worth your while to quit. Here are some things they do:
1.) They hold on to your FEC (work permit) and say they do it because they, "don't want you to lose it." But the real reason is because, if you have the FEC (which is worthless to you otherwise), then you can use it as leverage for asking for a release letter. That small book is required to be returned to the bureau after you're gone, and the company gets in hot water if it is not returned. That is the one and only shred of power you have over your employer. So, don't let them keep it!
2.) They don't reimburse you for your "out of pocket" expenses accumulated while securing your Z visa until the end of your contract. They make you pay the fees upfront. And then they charge you on top of that for using an agent who goes with you.
3.) They exploit the lag time incurred between your days worked and your payday (usually 2 weeks) as a deterrent to prevent you from walking away from your job. Because, the rate of successful lawsuits against an employer for backpay is relatively low. In the case that you do walk away, they will not pay you anything that you are rightfully owed, and they will call it a fine for breaching a contract. This is extremely illegal in the USA where "hours worked = hours paid," therefore any other money owed is considered a separate issue.
4.) They purposefully "frustrate the law" by making you sign 3 different contracts, with each contract's stipulations contradicting each other. It creates a veil of ambiguity in which they will hide behind or attempt to mix and match, then elect to choose the most favorable terms, therefore complicating any law suit.
5.) Knowing that your ability to stay in China is usually tied to your ability to work. Unless you're married or have a ton of money in savings, the several thousands of RMB that they owe you is hardly worth sticking around for a court battle. Most foreigners bail.
5.) Refuse to give you the release letter. Although a trip down to the local SAFEA office can usually clear this up in one phone call.
I know man, I hate it. It sucks living in a developing country. Over the five years I've lived here, the total sum still owed to me by past employers in back wages and unfulfilled contractual obligations amounts to around 5000 rmb. But, it's not worth my time to fight. My recommendation is to tell them you have a friend in the tax bureau. I actually have one, but that usually makes your employer view you on more of an equal standing.
Thanks for the advice... they recently told me the amount and said i only had to pay a portion...then they told me, i owed them 26,000 rmb (even though i gave them all the required documents but i think they hired an agent) and wouldn't provide me with receipts. They already gave me a release letter, However, my contract is silent and but i do have emails saying that they agreed to pay the visa costs...i have no idea why they paid so much, but i assume that many of their documents were not in order...
TMaster:
This is a joke.
My ten cents, you should tactfully agree to negociate a part based on the real costs of a visa. Which is at most a couple of thousands and I'm already counting large.
As long as your papers were in order and that you played by the rules all along, you don't even actually to do any of that, but see this and claim this as a gesture of extreme good will.
icnif77:
Contact SAFEA with all this what you posted here. SAFEA will help you get your last salary, and solve dispute with Z cost. As TMast said, Z doesn't cost more than couple of 1000 Rmb. Your School is very shady! I am convinced, SAFEA will help you.
Read more here:
http://answers.echinacities.com/question/anybody-has-unpaid-salary-or-outstanding-bills-helen-group
ironman510:
26k for a visa? Thats BS..Just be careful man, make smart moves and smart choices. Hope you get out of this situation. BTW no need to set your self as anonymous just because you have more then one question, we're here to help. Most of us are veterans here.
Great thanks...i think the whole thing is very strange, and they seemed very mad when i asked them for receipts. I'm beginning to think that their legal house is not in order (documents for the gov), and was worried if i got to the gov, if there was backlash I could receive as they may have had me working an incorrect VISA and i dont want my new job (who is transferring my z visa without any issues) to run into any problems...Afterall, this is Beijing and once the state gets involved anything can happen.
They also said that China law says that I have to pay them, but didnt include any proof.
TMaster:
First there is no law stating the issue of visa cost in one way or the other.
Second, they shouldn't be "mad" when asked for receipts, it shouldn't even be an issue. And even then, if you were to consider their request, you should only consider the receipts issued by government institutions: PSB, labour bureau, etc. Anything else bears no value.
Now, one thing to do, that I strongly advise you to do every time you get employed somewhere, is to check the company stated in your work permit (the booklet) as well as any official piece of official certificate: it should be the legal name of your employer, and nothing else. If it is not, then you haven't been employed legally strictly speaking, and you may be liable for it.
Anyhow, they have legally no way of forcing you to pay anything, and rest assure they know it. If they continue into blackmailing, keep any proof you can, just in case.
icnif77:
School wants to keep your last salary, so they state you owe them twice as much as your last salary they owe you. School is hoping, you will just get lost, because of that ('you owe them more than they owe you').
SAFEA!
TMaster:
Oh, clever icnif ! I totally failed to see it.
SAFEA it is then. ASAP. And DO NOT forget to check your employement permit!
Winehouse 'Valerie' on my brain waves......NewInTown:
Thanks for the great advice!
I think i will contact my new school and make sure my new visa is in order and then work my way back to getting my salary for december (from the last employer). The most important thing is my visa status, and i can deal with with last employer afterwards. I never expected these people to take my leaving so personal, esp after i got excellent student feedback scores...strange!
icnif77:
That is the reason! If feedback was OK, you were making money for the School. They don't want you to leave.
NewInTown:
Yea the reasons they used to try to make me stay were this:
The staff and other teacher like you...you should stay.
The students really like you and will miss you...you should stay
You will be hard to replace...you should stay.
You very good with the students and parents...you should stay.
I asked about increasing the salary and benefits and they said we can talk about that this summer, i responded, i wont be here that long...I dont think they thought i would go through with it, but i got a much better opportunity,
Can you post School's name and address. Just for the warning to the other FT!
NewInTown:
I'd rather not, but i can tell you in private, and what u do with it is not my business, lol...
icnif77:
Enter 'Helen' in the search bar above, and read few treads 'how I did it'! You'll see all the names there for warning to other FT about Helen.
You asked Q, and advice is 'go to the Gov.'
If your story is true, post the name of the School, so 'I won't advice you today, and few weeks later I'll apply at the same School.
Cool, thanks!
I know for a fact that it wasn't their name on the Blue paper i used to get my Z visa, because they made a point to tell me to not talk when i was in HK. And they were very upset when i ask for receipts over an email and said that their word should be enough lol..I have no issue paying for half the expenses for the gov fees for the VISA but their amount was ridiculous. I think they want me to pay for the agent they used, but that not happening as i had all my documents in order. I will talk to my new school and make sure that my visa was transferred then i will tell the old school, that im only paying for costs with a receipt.
TMaster:
Then the safe way to go about it would be to forget them and proceed with your new visa, in complete order this time. This is probably what they expect from you, as icnif cleverly explained.
PS : you can comment answers instead of posting new ones, I think this is the way it is meant to work.
NewInTown:
Sorry, im new to all this stuff, but many thanks for everyone's advice and help!
edit2403:
I have lived in China a long time and know how these kinds of schools think and operate in order to take advantage of new foreigners.
From your description here, they seem illegitimate and are trying to coerce you into paying a hefty sum. You should not pay them a thin nickel. Schools are absolutely responsible for the cost of the resident permit and Chinese medical. That's the way it's always been and should stay. If they choose to outsource any of their HR work, that's their prerogative, but YOU must not pay for it. However, if you have unwittingly agreed to a clause in the contract that says you must pay visa processing costs, then only agree to pay the ACTUAL cost of the resident permit application and medical, which you can find out from the Exit/Entry Bureau and a designated hospital (it's shouldn't be much more than 1000RMB combined). In the future, don't let a school write this into the contract as a condition of your employment--find another school if necessary. Even if they did hire an agent, 26,000 is excessive for such services. It's more likely that they have incurred a fine somewhere along the way and are trying to make you the bunny. They must BY LAW give you a release letter at the end of your contract. Everyone--foreigner and Chinese alike--knows this. If they are demanding payment or anything else in return for a release letter, get an interpreter and go to the local PSB !!! Your schools knows they are taking advantage of you, but they count on the fact that you don't have the resources to defend yourself. There is no need for you to cajole them or even pay a part of what they say you owe them.
Anyway, you have a release letter. That's all you need to get another job. Walk away, disappear and don't speak another word to these people. Don't pay them a dime and don't look back. There's no need to threaten or confront them unless they really try to lean on you. If you do need to meet with them again, take a lawyer with you to show them you are serious and call their bluff.
NewInTown:
Thanks for the advice...i meet with my new school on friday to make sure everything is in order...but i the old school will not see a dime from me!
No one here can answer your question. You are the only one who knows what your contract states.
ironman510:
We can give it a movie title: The War Within The Contract. lol
My wife takes care of the visas for her school. She says a Z costs 800rmb. So, they're trying to fleece you. Tell them to take the 800 out of your final salary and be done with it.
