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Q: Crime and punishment
I think we've had a discussion like this a few years back, but what the hey...
Skeppo has suggested that once a person has served out their punishment, the slate should be wiped clean.
I disagree.
I think that society (the authorities) have a responsibility to keep an eye on criminals, to 'ensure' they don't re-offend.
Similarly, if a criminal breaks a law again after serving time (or whatever other punishment), then their past criminal offenses need to be taken into account (because, obviously, they punishment hasn't taught them to respect the laws of a land.. let alone other people).
"Wiping the slate clean" would imply that all past offenses are gone, and effectively, the rapist who rapes again would be considered a first offender.
So... if a career criminal is punished, released, and then offends again - should the terms of the punishment be - the same for the same offense? Increased each time? (I think increased... society does not owe a career criminal indefinite chances).
Should everyone who is punished then be put onto a probation-type system? (I think yes)
8 years 2 weeks ago in Visa & Legalities - China
seems i remember stories of outlaws becoming lawmen in the "wild west" of the American past. I also think horses did not have to be registered, insured, and have license plates. my oh my have times changed. im sure in the not too distant future, big brother will have a toiletcam hooked up to everyone commode to check the color of everyones poop. sigh.
Shining_brow:
I'm failing to see your point in relation to the question.
Let me simplify things for you...
Should those child molester websites, that list all convicted sex offenders, etc, and where they are living, be banned? (I acknowledge that there are some needs to change things, such as 2 consenting - but not yet legally adults - can be convicted of sex offenses).
If a felon is released from prison, and a similar crime to that which the felon committed is again committed in the local area, should the police not have reason to at least automatically think said ex-con is a suspect, and question them?
silverbutton1:
@brow.
Yeah I get what you are trying to imply. And sure, child rapists, molesters, etc should be monitored. but I beg the question...where does it end ? In the USA, they practically throw the book at you for a DUI/DWI now.
In the USA, it seems to me all the focus is on the "little guy". the one that speaks of changes to a very corrupt system wherein even by violent means if necessary. these people are branded "potiental domentic terrorists" and are constantly harassed, and under constant surveillance in perpetuity.
I know im going off tangent a bit, but I do ask again...where does society divide the lines so to speak ?
Shining_brow:
I do not disagree with you. That would also have to be something to be considered. I'm sort of reminded of 'reformed' alcoholics, who say they cant have a drink, even after being off the wagon for 20 years. "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic".. apparently! (I disagree..)
I would suggest, it depends on the nature of the crime. Like for punishment, the duration of the probation period depends on the initial crime.
AS for the DUI issue - I actually agree. I'm reminded of something someone said to me many years ago - the punishment for 'attempted murder' is effectively rewarding someone for failing. DUI is effectively saying "I intend to increase my chances of killing or injuring someone because I want to ...".
xinyuren:
Is your argument that vehicle registration, insurance, and criminal punishment are unnecessary and draconian? Because that is what your answer implies and if you think that such rules and regulations are unnecessary in society, maybe a civil society is not for you. But to be fair, I get your point. Unfortunately, your point highlights what I have always said: No human government is capable of ruling properly. Not one. You are complaining about the US government's failures, but they all have failed. There is not one government on earth that can give all its people " justice, liberty and a fair chance for happiness. There is none and there neverwill be. The debate about the next POTUS is a joke. The outcome will make no difference at all accept to the particular group of elites who will get favorable attention from the victor.
I also agree with you.
There is a very prominent rape case with a Stanford University student that has outraged many people about the judge's ruling on sentencing.
http://www.sfchronicle.com/news/crime/article/Ex-Stanford-swimmer-expect...
bayuvar139:
By now the newspaper has shortened the story to a mere paragraph.
The real story went like this:
The judge sentenced the student to only 6 months and then the next day reduced the jail time to even less by 8 weeks or so, because the student is a real good athelete.
People are outraged and over 400 000 people have signed a petition to recall that judge. Also a public outcry when the student's father wrote a letter to the judge, stating that 6 months jail time was too much for his son who only had a few minutes worth of fun.
Shining_brow:
So in a nutshell - this kid is found guilty of rape (yes? Or was it downgraded?) and only gets a few weeks jail time because he's an athlete..???
His father is a moron - like most people, he's doing the "Oh, he's not such a bad boy... It wasn't REALLY that bad..." BS!
For the boy, it might have been 'only a few minutes of fun'. For the girl, it'll be a lifetime of issues (or therapy... or most likely both!)
bayuvar139:
Yes, it was a clear case of rape [of an unconscious woman]. He was caught by some classmates behind a dumpster. Yes, he was convicted, but the judge decided rto be lenient because he is such a great athelete [swimmer].
However, by now this guy has been banned for life time from participating in any sanctioned swim events, even the Olympic Games.
This be about Chinar? The charter of this scroll be what?
"
The place to ask China-related questions"
Skeppo:
Chinarrr be havin the crime and punishment, tis said.
The message in a bottle ye cast in the wake does not. Man the bilge pumps.
Hotwater:
It's been a while since this place has only been about Chinar. Note in particular the discussions on the US presidential elections. As long as it's a valid question that might affect people on here or ones that get a good discussion going then I think they're okay.
seems i remember stories of outlaws becoming lawmen in the "wild west" of the American past. I also think horses did not have to be registered, insured, and have license plates. my oh my have times changed. im sure in the not too distant future, big brother will have a toiletcam hooked up to everyone commode to check the color of everyones poop. sigh.
Shining_brow:
I'm failing to see your point in relation to the question.
Let me simplify things for you...
Should those child molester websites, that list all convicted sex offenders, etc, and where they are living, be banned? (I acknowledge that there are some needs to change things, such as 2 consenting - but not yet legally adults - can be convicted of sex offenses).
If a felon is released from prison, and a similar crime to that which the felon committed is again committed in the local area, should the police not have reason to at least automatically think said ex-con is a suspect, and question them?
silverbutton1:
@brow.
Yeah I get what you are trying to imply. And sure, child rapists, molesters, etc should be monitored. but I beg the question...where does it end ? In the USA, they practically throw the book at you for a DUI/DWI now.
In the USA, it seems to me all the focus is on the "little guy". the one that speaks of changes to a very corrupt system wherein even by violent means if necessary. these people are branded "potiental domentic terrorists" and are constantly harassed, and under constant surveillance in perpetuity.
I know im going off tangent a bit, but I do ask again...where does society divide the lines so to speak ?
Shining_brow:
I do not disagree with you. That would also have to be something to be considered. I'm sort of reminded of 'reformed' alcoholics, who say they cant have a drink, even after being off the wagon for 20 years. "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic".. apparently! (I disagree..)
I would suggest, it depends on the nature of the crime. Like for punishment, the duration of the probation period depends on the initial crime.
AS for the DUI issue - I actually agree. I'm reminded of something someone said to me many years ago - the punishment for 'attempted murder' is effectively rewarding someone for failing. DUI is effectively saying "I intend to increase my chances of killing or injuring someone because I want to ...".
xinyuren:
Is your argument that vehicle registration, insurance, and criminal punishment are unnecessary and draconian? Because that is what your answer implies and if you think that such rules and regulations are unnecessary in society, maybe a civil society is not for you. But to be fair, I get your point. Unfortunately, your point highlights what I have always said: No human government is capable of ruling properly. Not one. You are complaining about the US government's failures, but they all have failed. There is not one government on earth that can give all its people " justice, liberty and a fair chance for happiness. There is none and there neverwill be. The debate about the next POTUS is a joke. The outcome will make no difference at all accept to the particular group of elites who will get favorable attention from the victor.
Let me also add. Is it logical to imprison someone for very minor traffic infractions ? let me elaborate. in USA if a person is caught speeding, then the cop issues a citation. the driver has three options: 1) pay the ticket. 2) go to court and plead your case...if found guilty then pay the fine, if not then the case is dismissed. 3) dont pay the ticket or go to court and get issued an arrest warrant.
Does the govt have to be so draconian to imprison a person for such an offense ? Think long and hard about that word for a bit....Imprisonment.
BUT ! Also think about what else being imprisoned entails. being strip searched. sometimes even a body cavity search as well in the vaginal and/or anal areas. during processing. many times you are standing totally naked for 5-10 minutes in a room full of strangers and cops, etc.
I can tell you that many people very much fear being imprisoned and the crap you have to put up with. IMO, gone are the days of civility, and in fact are the days of cruelty and barbarism.
Shining_brow:
Firstly, I think you're building up a straw man (or red herring). Although I acknowledge your issues, they don't directly relate to the question.
Secondly, I think the major problem here (part of the logical fallacy above) is when you wrote "in America". The good ole US of A is not the bastion of freedom and civil rights that it portrays itself as.
But... I will bite, because there is a bit of a link there (potentially). If a driver gets done for a diving offense, And then again. And then again and again and again, the the extent it really looks like they have no regard for the laws on driving, should each and every single offense (that is paid by fine) be looked at on its own? Or, should the entire history be taking into account? If the driver has run a stop sign 6 times (for example), at some point, shouldn't the law enforcers pull this person off the roads - punished or not?
@GreatTao, this thread was just a frustrated clown's thinly veiled attemp to take cowardly cheap shots at a member who was banned (but since returned).
If I and GreatTao were in the same cell then I would make him my bitch. He wouldn't be able to pee standing up and we'd spoon every night.
I checked my Facebook today, and I saw a post from a friend in Salt Lake City. A guy who raped and murdered a 3 year old had been sentenced to death. The post was about a petition to allow a public hanging.
Wow.
If it was my daughter I would want a baseball bat.
And I have to admit, a baseball bat would be too good for him. I would cut every ounce of his flesh from him, a small cut at a time.
But as a Christian, I would have to forgive him.
Baseball bat or forgiveness?
I hope I never have to make that decision.
