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Posts: 31

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Q: Should expat forums accept ads from agents that cheat foreigners?

I notice more and more blind ads on expat forums are requiring copies of passports and visas from applicants yet they do not identify themselves in their ads, or they say they are "direct employers" when they are not. (When you call them or vice versa and ask which company they work for the truth comes out).  I also notice that many people/employers that are blacklisted on expat forums by foreign victims are still allowed to advertise!  I think this is nuts considering 20% of every foreigner who uses an agent coincidentally becomes a victim of identity theft. What say you all? I think anyone who send copies of their passports and visas to unnamed agents in blind ads must be insane, and probably deserve to be swindled for being so stupid!

11 years 7 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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Posts: 97

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never use a agent for work, what they do is sucking ppls blood that's what they do, anyway use ur guanxi to get a job its always better that way

Pegasus:

Yes of course!!! I also agree that we do not need to use agents to find jobs and we should avoid them whenever possible. But the question  is, should known scammers be allowed to advertise on expat forums when they have a track record of cheating foreigners?

11 years 6 weeks ago
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11 years 7 weeks ago
 
Posts: 7732

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It does annoy me to see various sites that have forums also allow advertising from various schools/agents that have been 'blacklisted', or at least regularly condemned by those who have been burnt. And the "we take no responsibility if you get gyped" just doesn't cut it with me.... if such sties really respect their members, then I think they have a duty to not allow such advertising...

 

There is actually a Chinese Foreign Teacher Union here, and they're trying to put together a White list of agents and schools (in Shanghai).... if the agent or school is willng to jump through the (pretty mild) hoops, then they'll get on the whitelist, and thus, are basically recommended to teachers! (there is, of course, also a blacklist).

 

I remember when I was younger and more naive, I sent off my passport etc :( However, I seem to have been lucky in that I haven't been through hell... most likely ripped off, but not hell Tongue

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11 years 6 weeks ago
 
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The bottom line is the advertisers pay for the site, we use. If there are no advertisers we have no site to post on. We would only really have a say if we were paying members, and as we aren't the choice is take it or leave.

 

Caveat Emptor, (That really could have been written with China in mind)

Amonk:

I would usually agree but, isn't bandwidth and upkeep for a text based site less than even the lowest adsense profits? Hell, we could use a free forum if we needed to. 

11 years 6 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Indeed  we could, but to administer such a site requires time and dedication (and not a little amount of cash), now if you want to initiate a blog where we could all join in and then put in place a set of rules and administer them, feel free! I've done similar work in the past on other sites, it requires a lot of time, a lot of work, is invariably thankless and often you become a target of insults (and worse) and you do this for no financial recompense and a lot of public ridicule.

 

No, I'll take advertisers any day.

11 years 6 weeks ago
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Pegasus:

Yes BUT... How difficult would it be for a forum to either insert a little red star that means - "this advertiser is not a direct employer" and a blue star that means "this advertiser is confirmed to be a direct employer" in all the employement ads?  Or, if they really were concerned about members they could have a blacklist section where members could name and shame people, and hopefully other members would be smart enough to check that section? Yes Hugh, advertising = money = paid overhead. But we are neither sheep, nor cows to be milked.

11 years 6 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

What's wrong with having only legitimate ads being paid for???

11 years 6 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Shining Brow; Nothing at all if they can get sufficient funds to keep the business going. However, this is a business and we aren't really in any position to dictate the policy of the owners as we contribute nothing financially to this site, and in the big scheme of things, this part of the site (answers) is only a small part of echinacities. Just look at how highly this section is regarded, after all the whole site has been redesigned over the last few months, the whole site except answers that is.

11 years 6 weeks ago
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11 years 6 weeks ago
 
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any forum that is based on advertising should allow its users to discuss the advertisers freely.  if anyone has been cheated by an advertiser then that would be an obvious topic for the forum

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11 years 6 weeks ago
 
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I won't use the complete name but one Chinese woman who uses the western name of Rebecca and owns C.ESL advertises on three Beijing expat forums with both paid and free ads.  She has been on every ESL blacklist in China, America, and Canada with very detailed complaints of fraud, extortion, and playing the "probationary period pay" trick on no less than 50 or 60 foreign teachers.  But when someone posted all the links about this woman at the Beijinger, all the links were deleted the next day, but the ads remained. When the OP at the Beijinger complained that the woman was a notoriously famous fraud and expats need to be warned, that link was also deleted and the poor bastard was banned for blowing the whistle, even though 13 different posters bitched about how they were ripped by the same woman. 

 

I am just using Rebecca as the poster child because she is the most famous in Beijing and is the one responsible for starting the teacher's blacklist as well. But there must be at least 5-6 of them hiding behind legitimate forums like this one and others. They know we trust these forums so we would not suspect they'd be lurking here.

 

I think maybe ads that are run by agents should have some notice or disclaimer inserted by the forums so expats get some heads up to be very careful - at the very least. I can understand Hugh's opinion - to a point.  But where do you draw the line?

katherinecox1987:

Thanks for sharing this Pegasus. Here's my story, I posted it on another forum as well. I'm hoping it will spread far and wide so people will read about what a rotten person she is.

 


Teacher learns a lesson: The trafficking of foreign ESL teachers in China
K.T. Cox
It was not until Christmas that I fully realized I was one of many foreign teachers being scammed in Beijing, China. A dream of going to China with the pure intentions of teaching English while exploring another culture has turned into an expensive nightmare.
Prior to coming to China I was promised 5000RMB [or US$800 (RMB is Chinese currency) each month at an ESL school, a visa, a free apartment, and airfare to get home through an agency called ChinaESL, organized by Rebecca Tang. If you Google search her agency, you will find there is nothing negative being said about this company. She has links to Dave’s ESL cafe (one of the most popular foreign teacher employment websites worldwide) and I talked to plenty of people who have done ESL teaching in China and loved it. With all the information I could find at that time, I made my decision to head to China, a dream of mine since I was young. Upon arrival in China I was forced to sign an additional contract by Rebecca Tang, who said she needed to remove 2000RMB [US$320] from the first three paychecks as a deposit. This left me to survive on 3000RMB [US$480] each month, then after I would receive my promised salary of 5000RMB. There were several other cited stipulations in the contract, such as "If Party B shows the contract to anyone, Party A has the right to cancel Party B’s visa, put her on the blacklist, and charge 20,000RMB [US$3,200]." There were many other clauses that included seemingly ridiculous fees, but she told me if I didn’t sign the contract I’d have to pay 20,000RMB as a penalty. Since I didn’t know anyone in China, had no place to live (as this meeting took place in Tang’s home), and could barely speak the language, I felt I had no choice but to sign it—though I knew something didn’t feel right.
While much of my China adventure has been a wonderful experience—learning a new language, visiting the Great Wall and ancient temples, working with brilliant students, and falling in love with a brilliant British poet from Cardiff—I tried to hide the fact that I’ve been struggling financially. Every email and blog post featured only the highlights and positive aspects of my time here to comfort the worried concerns of friends and family back home in Olympia, Washington.
I cannot share how I came about the truth as a means to respect privacy, but Tang has been doing the same thing to many other people. At Web International English where I worked, over 60% of the foreign teachers are employed through Rebecca through out all the Web Centers in Beijing. Rebecca also has connections to kindergartens and middle schools, and is screwing over everyone a little differently. In my case, the school I was working at was paying me 15,800RMB and Tang was leaving me with only 3000RMB, keeping the rest for herself. After talking to the police, the Public Services bureau, the US embassy, and Web Headquarters, I found there is absolutely nothing that can be done. I sat in an interrogation room on three separate occasions--one for 2 hours, one for 4 hours and one for almost 6 while my boss was helping me to translate what the police were saying. The school is being fined and I (was) going to be fined, even though I provided evidence that it was Rebecca’s fault for bringing me over here illegally, insisting that I needed an F visa.
They also wrote the transcripts by hand rather than filming the conversation or voice recording it, and they forced me to sign the transcripts even though they did not accurately represent what was said in the interrogation. Rebecca Tang has connections to the head of police and she has a close relationship with the head of the Entry/Exit department of the Public Services Bureau; she knew specific details about the interrogation that nobody else could have known unless someone was acting as a spy for her. I know this sounds frightening, but its absolutely true. She even knew what day I was leaving the country, and her assistant and my landlord barged in to my apartment demanding that I paid bills for the entire time I was there. Also, the morning I was preparing to leave, she had someone pose as a police officer to harass me and insist that I give my flight information. I knew better of course, and told them to f*** off. Her assistant even showed up to take pictures of my now empty room so they can lease it to someone else—I hope that person is not you.
The only chance I could stand at fighting her would be to take her to court, but I’d have to hire a lawyer, which I could not afford. No matter what, the system is set up so foreign teachers will lose even though several China Labor Laws are being broken.
Rebecca Tang has been running this scam for 8 years and will continue to do it to unsuspecting foreigners. In addition to her connections to the police and the PSB, she also has connections to the government; nobody can stop her. The only way we can prevent this from happening is to tell stories like these, and I sincerely hope you will pass this around.
 I’ve spent the past 2 weeks saying good-bye to my friends, my students, my colleagues and my boyfriend who I’m still in love with. Additionally, Rebecca kept my last paycheck that was supposed to be paid on Jan. 25; every cent. I’m completely broke.
 This has been the most emotionally draining experience I’ve had in my short life. And I can suspect people will say as they read this; "you should have taken more precautions," "done more research on the company," "not have signed the contract," or "there are people that are poor and have nothing, you shouldn’t complain." I can name more things about the better choices I "should" have made, and maybe my problem is relatively small to what others have suffered, but that does not justify the fact that this agent conned me and countless others into signing a contract that resulted in her stealing thousands while breaking Chinese labor laws. We were brought here to work illegally and we are traded like cattle. Many teachers working here cannot find decent paying jobs elsewhere, came here for a chance to teach and offer a service to people who want to improve their English. If you are a newly graduated young female in her early twenties traveling alone and trying to pay off debts from student loans and assorted bills, maybe you’d understand the full effect of this. And hopefully learn from it. See: tips on agent scams. Nobody deserves to be victimized or mistreated or taken advantage of. Period.
Now I won’t deny that the American justice system is far from perfect, and this story does not glorify any "fair" decisions the United States has made—as murderers and child molesters can get off on technicalities, and big corporate powers will pay fees that amount to a light slap on the wrist in the big scheme of their evil doings—but rather how easy it is for a foreigner to be victimized abroad. Additionally this story does not presume to characterize the general population of Chinese people. In fact, I received overwhelming support from my students, my friends, my boss and even had officials from three different schools offer to help me get the proper visa to be employed legally and offer a better wage. If I weren’t under the thumb of this wicked agent--who was controlling my bank account, my apartment, and had connections to powerful people who could potentially give me even more trouble--I would have been happy to accept. The fact is, I needed to be home with my friends and family to recover from what happened. I will return to China someday, but on my own terms and with much more awareness.
So, I approached my final days in Beijing simply knowing in my heart that I was right and that nothing could break my spirit...and then the impossible happened: I was invited to come to the police station once more to assess the fines for my offense of working here illegally under Tang’s supervision. The police apparently felt sorry for me and think this situation is unfair. They disapprove of Tang’s relationship with their boss, so they have devised a plan for me to escape: they submitted a request to reduce my fine in order to delay my paperwork process so I could leave the country without paying, as I’ve provided sufficient evidence that this offense was not my fault and due to Tang’s manipulation. They also said they would ensure my safety at the airport, and their boss would have to let my case go. I was in complete shock. Apparently this sort of thing never happens; to foreigners, to Chinese citizens, to people that are poor and powerless, to people that fought the system without proper legal defense. I have no idea why I was lucky, or why this ending turned out the way it did. It was a small victory compared to the grand scheme of ChinaESL’s evil doings, but any victory is worth celebrating.
Now, this is a rare victory. The truth is no matter where you go in the world, a stupid piece of paper can rip apart people that love each other, can disenchant your dream of making the world a better place and (in cases far worse than mine) consume everything you have—everything but one—to quote my beloved: "If you know in your heart that you are right, nothing can touch you." Best wishes to anyone who aspires the same dream. May this story be helpful and eye-opening.
Tips for avoiding overseas teaching scams and teacher trafficking: 1.) Do research at the countries embassy about decent living wages.2.) Have a lawyer review your contract to ensure it is in accordance with the country labor laws.3.) Make connections with citizens within the country before you go; ask if they’ve heard reviews on the business. You won’t always find bad reviews on companies just by internet research. Signs of bad agents:
1. They ask for money up front.
2. They use post office boxes, instead of office addresses.
3. They make promises of employment and guarantees of refunds.
4. They charge fees for giving you a job lead.
5. They pressure you and encourage you to make a decision too quickly.
6. They make you pay for your own visa and flight and don’t compensate you; a good business will offer that because you are doing them a service. Helpful cites to review if you want to teach in China: ChinaForeignTeachersUnion.org

11 years 6 weeks ago
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11 years 6 weeks ago

China - the ultimate onion...

 
Posts: 20

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Normally my answer would be a simple  "No"

 

But since "This Is China" I now have to say...

 

"Absolutely Not" if the forum is owned and operated by foreigners, and

 

"Sure - No Problem" if the forum is owned and operated by local Chinese, and

 

"Let Me Think About It For A Year" if the forum is owned by a foreign-born Chinese

 

 

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11 years 6 weeks ago

I want to go to Happy Valley!

 
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If they banned every school and agent that cheated employees, there would be no website. However, I think the level of cheating varies, depending on the quality of both the school and the teacher.

 

The better schools generally look for qualified and skilled teachers. Such teachers have less problems finding other jobs if the school goes overboard on the cheating.

 

At the other end of the scale are the schools that are obviously going to cheat the teacher. These tend to attract teachers with fake qualifications or lesser English skills. In this respect, both parties are cheating each other.

 

I think a qualified and English-proficient teacher has less to worry about being cheated. It is the fake and non-proficient teachers that have most to worry about, and such teachers are actually fuelling the whole cheating culture. They should not complain when they are cheated in return.

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11 years 6 weeks ago
 
Posts: 31

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"If they banned every school and agent that cheated employees, there would be no website. However, I think the level of cheating varies, depending on the quality of both the school and the teacher."

 

I don't think this forum or any other expat forum in China is financially supported by Chinese schools. 90% of the ads they take out are freebies. And not all the schools are crooked - just mostly the private Chinese Schools.  Universities and foreign owned International schools don't create all the grief. It is the sleazy agents who have cozy relationships with principals.  This link will explain this fully, http://www.tefl.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5688#p13489

 

But frankly I don't think the expat forums have the time nor manpower to screen all these agents who slip their ads onto the forums.  If the forums required verification  from the schools these agents claim to represent, it might cut the scams in half. But as you can see from the above link, principals cannot buy BMWs, Audis, and Benzs without a few agents.

 

It would be great if the forums could say, there is a conflict of interest here and unless you register your agency license, personal photo, real Chinese name and physical address online with us (the forum) you cannot advertise here. But that takes a lot of courage and time.

 

At present there is zero accountability for employment agents and recruiters. They ask foreigners for everything they need to steal identities (resumes, passport & visa scans) yet we have no clue what their real names are, where their office is, and what if any schools really authorized them to recruit teachers. They change their western names and mobile numbers frequently and we have no way to track them down if we suddenly get hit with a 50,000 rmb credit card bill!!!  I agree with the guy above who said their should be no free ads for agents. I would also suggest that agents be required to register all the information above in bold, before they could even buy an ad.  If they have no verifiable MoE or SAIC license - no ad.  Did you know that SAFEA only acknowledges 62 employment agents to be licensed in all of China?  Yet there are hundreds of agents chasing us down for jobs.  They could be calling and emailing us from anywhere. We wouldn't give this personal info to stranger back West so why the hell would we do it in China?  Are teachers such whimps that they cannot say "No, I will give copies of my passport and visa only to direct employers who offer me a job"?????

ambivalentmace:

where can i get the list of 62 registered agents

11 years 2 weeks ago
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11 years 6 weeks ago

China - the ultimate onion...

 
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