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Q: Any pointers on understanding Chinese philosophy?
I am odd. I read all of Copleston's history of phiosophy as well as Russell's books plus the Chinese version of Samuel Enoch Stumpff.
I also read many Indian philosophy source books and I came to conclusion that the Indians were well advanced philosophically compared to the west, so I'm no bigot.
I came to China to learn about their ideas and ways of life and I'm stumped. What's it all about?
Can someone summarize it for me, or give me advice on what to read.
Philosophy lover.
Chur
This is Xun Zi's (310 BC-237 BC) definition of the lowest of Chinese in his time, 2200+ years ago. Ahem, use this yardstick to measure mainland Chinese.
Based on your PRC experience, what is the percentage of mainland Chinese who fits right into this definition? 
Is it any wonder they flushed these scholars' works down the tube using the 'cultural revolution' , using the excuse that 'they are outdated, feudalistic garbage'? Haha, dare they teach Xun Zi today? How much has these people evolved in the last two thousand years?
"The petty man boasts non-stop, yet he asks for trust. He lies, yet expects affection. He behaves like animals, yet demands to be respected." Xun Zi (310 BC-237 BC)
Xun Zi (310 BC-237 BC)
laowaigentleman:
All of these thinkers you're telling me about had their works destroyed during the Cultural Revolution?
My understanding of Mao is that as a writer he cited ancient Chinese writers much more than Marx and Engels. What was his view of his classical education? Was it something he simply acquired for the sake of power?
I know the story of how his father lost a court case to a guy who cited a Chinese proverb and this caused him (his father) to change his views on education, which he saw as utilitarian. Perhaps in the same mould as the girl's father in Hard Times whose name I can't remember. Is it fair to assume Mao saw this man get one over on someone and decided to adopt the education simply for power's sake and then destroy it for everyone else?
I'm so fascinated by the cultural revolution. I wish China would open up its archives. Obviously that can't happen.
I asked my girlfriend about the quote you just gave me and she said she learned it. Unfortunately Chinese education is about rote learning, so I think the profundity doesn't even sink in. I showed her all of this post and she said, "haha, I suppose so."
Thanks so much for the info by the way. It's very much appreciated. I can get lost in reading philosophy for days and weeks and you've given me new material and the primers needed to comprehend it.
earthizen:
Confucius, Mencius, .....all ancient scholars' and philosophers' work was grouped under the category of feudal thinking and thus was garbage. It wasn't until Deng, AFTER Mao's death, who dare to 'open China up' to the 'foreign devils'. Did your girlfriend learn that quote from Xun Zi on her own or at school? These days the ban was lifted as you know and they even rebuilt the destroyed Confucius statues.
Mao was a librarian and I supposed he read about these ancient works there. This is the irony, he banned these works later on. Why? Some said it was consolidation of power to the extreme, despite that he was ALREADY worshipped like a god. You know, these zombies had to stand in front of his picture (at home), and report to him in the evening what they did, everyday. I wasn't there but it sounded like the confession of Catholics.
I 'll tell everyone a funny, but real story about Mao and a girl comrade he never met in person. It tallied with other poster's comment about girls like to read novels and are more educated in literature. You can tell this to your girlfriend and laugh together.
During the war years, Mao was fighting against the KMT. His soldiers were mostly uneducated, loud mouth peasants, (you still see them everywhere in china these days, no manners, no culture). These ones need women. What girl in the right mind would want to marry them? Not that many. Unless they were fanatical CCP zombies.
There was this girl from Peking University (Bei dai) majoring in literature, intelligent, beautiful and cultured. They somehow convinced her to 'donate her body to the country' and be the 'wife' of a medium ranking CCP officier, a shan bi lao (peasant). Since he was fighting a war he could only visit his 'wife' once a month. (I think there is more to the story, she probably wasn't serving just one...and this may well be one of the origin of bodies are cheap, for the country...blah..blah..blah...). Basically to do that thing.
One night, after they did it, the girl saw the full moon in the sky and suggested they went out for a moonlight stroll. The guy said, "WTF is wrong with you? WTF is so beautiful with that pancake in the sky? I can use the time to rest and get it back up again to have a second poke!"
Wait, that's not the punch line. The story continues.
After the bastard left, the girl sighed and wrote a moving poem, basically it says, "I saw purity of creation in the sky while he saw a pancake., ....."
Somehow the poem got into the hands of Mao and he wrote a poem back to her. It says, "You can't eat that creation in the sky, you eat pancakes...."
Says a lot, doesn't it?
[Edited: The lift of the ban, rebuilding of monuments, Confucius statues.....etc. NO, don't use the western mind to look at it, 'how wonderful'....it is for MONEY, tourist attraction,....that's why these are all moral BS (to mainland sh?tbombs)', they are starving dogs fighting for sh?ts.....don't ever forget that....that's why they laugh when they hear ancient sages words.....not a christian myself ...but I read about throwing pearls to pigs....]
laowaigentleman:
Seriously man, thanks so much!
You've given me the motivation I need to learn about Chinese culture, history and work on developing the sophistication of the (small amount of) Chinese that I know.
I've been unhappy here because to me this country is an intellectually barren miasma of greed, vanity and stupidity. All of the vices I despise the most are common occurrences. I'll find some literature and work as hard as I can on my Chinese.
I'd never heard of Xun Zi before. He's the one I'll be working on the comprehension of Chinese characters for.
One last question: western philosophy can be broken up into disciplines - metaphysics, ethics, logic, aesthetics, etc etc. It seems Indian philosophy accepted (consciously or unconsciously) the existence of different disciplines. Nagarguna could distinguish between epistemology and ontology, for example.
Did Chinese thinkers approach their ideas systematically? To me, it seems they didn't and that was what undermined my appreciation of what they were trying to do.
earthizen:
Yes, philosophy is fascinating for the mind, I enjoy it myself.
<Ironman510, diverdude1, nailed life, one boiled the entire Buddhism philosophy down to two sentences, one with a photo, bypassing all philosophical conundrums, Eorthisio (?) boiled the whole bible down in one sentence, you think that is easy? They may not be aware of it consciously but this is definitely the mark of an old soul.
Interesting bunch we have here, definitely.
laowaigentleman:
I'm looking at it now.
I know of a lot of "isms", without being familiar with what they mean.
One of those is "legalism".
It mentions Xun Zi's thought is considered to be outside of the bounds of confucian orthodoxy.
What is this orthodoxy? You described it as akin to the Old Testament with Moses coming down the mountain with the ten commandments.
Having read this piece I can see that my assertions about the lack of depth to the schools of thought to be justified. Undertaking rituals to create a stable society is a great example of dogmatism, but I think I'm starting to see the motivation. These men were trying to create a society and define a person's role in it, Plato did this with political questions, but he approached questions of the nature of knowledge and ethics completely differently, as did the Indians. Is it cynical of me to assume these were the fathers of "no why"?
earthizen:
Confucian orthodoxy is : "Confucian thinkers were most concerned about the names of social roles: a father must act like a father should, a ruler must act like a ruler should. Not fulfilling the demands of one’s role means that one does not deserve the title, hence Mencius defined the removal of a tyrant as the killing of a commoner, not regicide. Xunzi defended this view, yet he objected to the Mohists, who claimed that a robber is not a person, so that killing a robber is not killing a person." (same webpage)
On Confucius and his philosophy -- www.iep.utm.edu/confuciu/earthizen:
Legalism example"According to the eminent sinologist Robin Yates, newly discovered Qin Dynasty legal codes show that officials were required to correctly calculate the exact amount of labour expected of all artisans; if the artisan was ordered to perform either too much work or too little work, the official would be held accountable. In theory, ministers and other officials were prevented from performing some other official's duties and were punished if they attempted to blind the ruler with words or failed to warn the ruler of danger."
the best translator is Beer and Spirits 
sort of like being married they talk and you just smile and think about something else
You say lover of philosophy but don't mention any Chinese authors? Not to dog you or give you a hard time but there are a few.
One of my favorites is Lin Yu Tang
Two really good books are The Wisdom of Laotse it's like a primer to the book of Tao. Gives a lot of background information to each chapter and the intro is really good.
Also his book My Country and My People which he is probably best well known for which analyzes Chinese behaviour in the 1930s. I read that some say it is outdated but he addresses a lot of stuff that still seems applicable today, like standing around and watching if something is happening. He did write a lot of books.
A short history of Chinese Philosophy by Fung Yu-Lan
Highlights the major different types of philosophical thought, first written in 1948.
And one I like to add because I think it addresses what is going on now is Tombstone by Yang Jisheng. The beginning of the book sets up what was going on, reports, facts, and at the end he writes about consequences and his analysis. So for understanding "their ideas and ways of life " this book I think is one of the best.
laowaigentleman:
My problem is that I know who they are, but I can't appreciate them from the same kind of historical context that I can western thinkers.
I have the same problems with the Indians, but they don't trouble me too much as their thought is highly systematic.
laowaigentleman:
Thanks Bob.
I will look for those books. They sound like good recommendations. Anything that places a historical context around a system of ideas, I find, makes the material so much easier to grasp.
I read the Tao a few years ago with no primer and couldn't understand it at all.
Indians philosophy is a lot more profound as they are heavily into meditation and the spiritual side. Relatively speaking, there are a lot more than the Chinese ones.
Despite all the hearsay surrounding Osho, I find his sharp and no BS talks hit mankind with a 3x3 spot on. He was born sharp, period.
As for Chinese philosophers, these are the key ones, around the time of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.
Confucius to tell the truth is a bit like the OT (old testament), teaching you how to behave as emperor/father/son....etc., harmony, harmony, harmony..
Mencius lots of debates on human nature, good and/or evil, not bad but still on the surface layer
Zhuangzu is more evolved in his thinking, a lot lighter.
Lao Tzu more spiritual. Here are some of their quotes to let those who are interested have a glimpse into their thoughts. Some are VERY different from western thinking as you can see (e.g. about leaders) below, even traveling!
Confucius 551 BC - 479 BC
Mencius 371 BC - 289 BC
Hu Shih 1891 - 1962
Lao Tzu
Sun Tzu
Zhuangzu 369 BC - 286 BC
Xun Zi 310 BC - 237 BC
I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming I am a man.
Zhuangzi
Happiness is the absence of the striving for happiness.
Zhuangzi
Rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education.
Zhuangzi
A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves.
Lao Tzu
A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving.
Lao Tzu
In dwelling, live close to the ground. In thinking, keep to the simple. In conflict, be fair and generous. In governing, don't try to control. In work, do what you enjoy. In family life, be completely present.
Lao Tzu
The key to growth is the introduction of higher dimensions of consciousness into our awareness.
Lao Tzu
Yes, I got one: Don't think about it. It's spring time so focus on beauty where ever you find it. That's my philosophy...
earthizen:
"Don't....focus.......it" Not bad especially if you're a guy. You just boiled an entire library of Buddhist scriptures down to two sentences. In four words, it is --- living in the now. Not joking here, not a small feat for the human mind, look around you, ...look at what the 7 billions are thinking/doing...Give yourself a pat on the back, well done.
sorry guys,, looks like the pic was deleted somehow...
expatlife26:
I was born in munich but I was just a baby when I lived there. My parents were also expats in their day.
Although coincidently I am ethnically bavarian from a munich based family.
This is Xun Zi's (310 BC-237 BC) definition of the lowest of Chinese in his time, 2200+ years ago. Ahem, use this yardstick to measure mainland Chinese.
Based on your PRC experience, what is the percentage of mainland Chinese who fits right into this definition?
Is it any wonder they flushed these scholars' works down the tube using the 'cultural revolution' , using the excuse that 'they are outdated, feudalistic garbage'? Haha, dare they teach Xun Zi today? How much has these people evolved in the last two thousand years?
"The petty man boasts non-stop, yet he asks for trust. He lies, yet expects affection. He behaves like animals, yet demands to be respected." Xun Zi (310 BC-237 BC)
Xun Zi (310 BC-237 BC)
laowaigentleman:
All of these thinkers you're telling me about had their works destroyed during the Cultural Revolution?
My understanding of Mao is that as a writer he cited ancient Chinese writers much more than Marx and Engels. What was his view of his classical education? Was it something he simply acquired for the sake of power?
I know the story of how his father lost a court case to a guy who cited a Chinese proverb and this caused him (his father) to change his views on education, which he saw as utilitarian. Perhaps in the same mould as the girl's father in Hard Times whose name I can't remember. Is it fair to assume Mao saw this man get one over on someone and decided to adopt the education simply for power's sake and then destroy it for everyone else?
I'm so fascinated by the cultural revolution. I wish China would open up its archives. Obviously that can't happen.
I asked my girlfriend about the quote you just gave me and she said she learned it. Unfortunately Chinese education is about rote learning, so I think the profundity doesn't even sink in. I showed her all of this post and she said, "haha, I suppose so."
Thanks so much for the info by the way. It's very much appreciated. I can get lost in reading philosophy for days and weeks and you've given me new material and the primers needed to comprehend it.
earthizen:
Confucius, Mencius, .....all ancient scholars' and philosophers' work was grouped under the category of feudal thinking and thus was garbage. It wasn't until Deng, AFTER Mao's death, who dare to 'open China up' to the 'foreign devils'. Did your girlfriend learn that quote from Xun Zi on her own or at school? These days the ban was lifted as you know and they even rebuilt the destroyed Confucius statues.
Mao was a librarian and I supposed he read about these ancient works there. This is the irony, he banned these works later on. Why? Some said it was consolidation of power to the extreme, despite that he was ALREADY worshipped like a god. You know, these zombies had to stand in front of his picture (at home), and report to him in the evening what they did, everyday. I wasn't there but it sounded like the confession of Catholics.
I 'll tell everyone a funny, but real story about Mao and a girl comrade he never met in person. It tallied with other poster's comment about girls like to read novels and are more educated in literature. You can tell this to your girlfriend and laugh together.
During the war years, Mao was fighting against the KMT. His soldiers were mostly uneducated, loud mouth peasants, (you still see them everywhere in china these days, no manners, no culture). These ones need women. What girl in the right mind would want to marry them? Not that many. Unless they were fanatical CCP zombies.
There was this girl from Peking University (Bei dai) majoring in literature, intelligent, beautiful and cultured. They somehow convinced her to 'donate her body to the country' and be the 'wife' of a medium ranking CCP officier, a shan bi lao (peasant). Since he was fighting a war he could only visit his 'wife' once a month. (I think there is more to the story, she probably wasn't serving just one...and this may well be one of the origin of bodies are cheap, for the country...blah..blah..blah...). Basically to do that thing.
One night, after they did it, the girl saw the full moon in the sky and suggested they went out for a moonlight stroll. The guy said, "WTF is wrong with you? WTF is so beautiful with that pancake in the sky? I can use the time to rest and get it back up again to have a second poke!"
Wait, that's not the punch line. The story continues.
After the bastard left, the girl sighed and wrote a moving poem, basically it says, "I saw purity of creation in the sky while he saw a pancake., ....."
Somehow the poem got into the hands of Mao and he wrote a poem back to her. It says, "You can't eat that creation in the sky, you eat pancakes...."
Says a lot, doesn't it?
[Edited: The lift of the ban, rebuilding of monuments, Confucius statues.....etc. NO, don't use the western mind to look at it, 'how wonderful'....it is for MONEY, tourist attraction,....that's why these are all moral BS (to mainland sh?tbombs)', they are starving dogs fighting for sh?ts.....don't ever forget that....that's why they laugh when they hear ancient sages words.....not a christian myself ...but I read about throwing pearls to pigs....]
laowaigentleman:
Seriously man, thanks so much!
You've given me the motivation I need to learn about Chinese culture, history and work on developing the sophistication of the (small amount of) Chinese that I know.
I've been unhappy here because to me this country is an intellectually barren miasma of greed, vanity and stupidity. All of the vices I despise the most are common occurrences. I'll find some literature and work as hard as I can on my Chinese.
I'd never heard of Xun Zi before. He's the one I'll be working on the comprehension of Chinese characters for.
One last question: western philosophy can be broken up into disciplines - metaphysics, ethics, logic, aesthetics, etc etc. It seems Indian philosophy accepted (consciously or unconsciously) the existence of different disciplines. Nagarguna could distinguish between epistemology and ontology, for example.
Did Chinese thinkers approach their ideas systematically? To me, it seems they didn't and that was what undermined my appreciation of what they were trying to do.
earthizen:
Yes, philosophy is fascinating for the mind, I enjoy it myself.
<Ironman510, diverdude1, nailed life, one boiled the entire Buddhism philosophy down to two sentences, one with a photo, bypassing all philosophical conundrums, Eorthisio (?) boiled the whole bible down in one sentence, you think that is easy? They may not be aware of it consciously but this is definitely the mark of an old soul.
Interesting bunch we have here, definitely.
laowaigentleman:
I'm looking at it now.
I know of a lot of "isms", without being familiar with what they mean.
One of those is "legalism".
It mentions Xun Zi's thought is considered to be outside of the bounds of confucian orthodoxy.
What is this orthodoxy? You described it as akin to the Old Testament with Moses coming down the mountain with the ten commandments.
Having read this piece I can see that my assertions about the lack of depth to the schools of thought to be justified. Undertaking rituals to create a stable society is a great example of dogmatism, but I think I'm starting to see the motivation. These men were trying to create a society and define a person's role in it, Plato did this with political questions, but he approached questions of the nature of knowledge and ethics completely differently, as did the Indians. Is it cynical of me to assume these were the fathers of "no why"?
earthizen:
Confucian orthodoxy is : "Confucian thinkers were most concerned about the names of social roles: a father must act like a father should, a ruler must act like a ruler should. Not fulfilling the demands of one’s role means that one does not deserve the title, hence Mencius defined the removal of a tyrant as the killing of a commoner, not regicide. Xunzi defended this view, yet he objected to the Mohists, who claimed that a robber is not a person, so that killing a robber is not killing a person." (same webpage)
On Confucius and his philosophy -- www.iep.utm.edu/confuciu/earthizen:
Legalism example"According to the eminent sinologist Robin Yates, newly discovered Qin Dynasty legal codes show that officials were required to correctly calculate the exact amount of labour expected of all artisans; if the artisan was ordered to perform either too much work or too little work, the official would be held accountable. In theory, ministers and other officials were prevented from performing some other official's duties and were punished if they attempted to blind the ruler with words or failed to warn the ruler of danger."
Confucius say oral sex makes one's day but anal sex makes one's hole weak.
laowaigentleman:
That's the best thing I heard since the limerick about the bishop of birmingham.
"It is said of the Bishop of Birmingham,
that he fucks little boys when confirming them,
they kneel on the hassock
as he lifts up his cassock
and pumps his episcopal sperm in them"
Not an attempt to one up you, it's just that you've given me the best belly laugh I've had in ages and it reminded me of the last one I had.
You're not chinese so you won't ever get it.. Right?
earthizen:
Give the zombies this one, "Of course, me no psychopath". 
From the summary of Xun Zi's views on education:
"The teacher plays an extremely important role in the course of study. A good teacher does not simply know the rituals, he embodies them and practices them in his own life. Just as one would not learn piano from someone who had just read a book on piano pedagogy but never touched an actual instrument, one should not study from someone who has only learned texts. A teacher is not just a source of information; he is a model for the student to look up to and a source of inspiration of what to become. A teacher who does not live up to the Way of the sages in his own life is no teacher at all. Xunzi believes there is no better method of study than learning from such a teacher. In this way, the student has a model before of him of how to live ritual principles, so his learning does not become simple accumulation of facts. In the event that such a teacher is unavailable, the next best method is to honor ritual principles sincerely, trying to embody them in oneself. Without either of these methods, Xunzi believes learning degenerates into memorizing a jumble of facts with no impact on one's conduct."
