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Q: Is freedom not free?
A strongman, knowing his health is failing, decides to go with the flow of world history as nations in Asia democratize, and liberalize his nation. Suddenly, truth is on everyone’s lips as free speech and media restrictions are lifted. Social issues germinating for years coalesce into civil society groups that advocate for labor rights, women’s rights, ethnic minority rights, consumer rights, environmental protection and more. Alternative political parties are legalized. People vote. A democracy is born.
No, this isn’t a science fiction movie, but roughly what happened in Taiwan in 1987, when the leader of the ruling Kuomintang, Chiang Ching-kuo, the son of the longtime dictator Chiang Kai-shek, lifted martial law, ending the control his party and its security apparatus had exerted over the Republic of China, which they moved to Taiwan in 1949.
So my question is: How much does it cost to get freedom? Whilst some people diminish Chinese as cowardice (which is both right and wrong to a certain degree), in my point of view, freedom is more of a legacy that the people today who enjoy it inherited from their dead compatriots who fought for it many many years ago, or donated by authorities who quit power.
I understand that many people today in free countries are still fighting for restricting power and upholding their civil rights. However, such fights are done through legal process. Few of them cost blood or brutal persecution in jail. It's not fair when the free people belittle Chinese people's personalities just because currently Chinese are not as fortunate as you are.
How much did you pay for your freedom?
Do you want to know what I've paid for my freedom?
I think you should know I've killed a lot of people. Some North Koreans in an apartment uptown... uh... some Vietnamese people maybe five or ten. Uh... Some North Korean girl I met in Pyongyang, I left her in a parking lot behind some kimchi shop, I killed Thuy, my old girlfriend, with a nailgun and... some man, some old commie faggot with a dog. Last week I killed another commie... with a chainsaw... I had to, he almost got away. And there... was someone else there I don't remember, maybe a model, but sh- she's dead, too. And, uh- KIM JONG-IL. I killed Kim Jong-il with an axe. In the face. His body is dissolving in a bathtub in Pyongyang. I don't want to leave anything out here — I guess I've killed maybe... 20 people... maybe 40! Uh- huh huh-I have uh... tapes of a lot of it. Some of the commies have seen the tapes — I even... I ate some of their brains and I tried to cook a little. Tonight, I uh- just had to kill a lot of people! And I'm not sure I'm gonna get away with it... this time. I mean... I mean I guess I'm a pretty sick guy. So, if you get back tomorrow, I may show up at the Mass Games. So, you know, keep your eyes OPEN. BYE!
mArtiAn:
You killed a North Korean girl in Pyongyang??? Hey 'I' killed a North Korean girl in Pyongyang!!! Hahaha! How about that! Kizmet! My oh my, it certainly is a small small world.
I would put some nuance in what you call freedom here.
If we talk about democracy, it is now clear that many of the western democracies today are also sick, sick of being given the choice between two or three poisons that only differ in their advertising package, and get appointed by the people solely according the charisma of their leaders or the size of the budget their real bosses have granted to them.
Don't be mistaken, the globalized modern world is run by a very liberal form of capitalism, in which the level of freedom you enjoy is strictly subjected to the amount of money you have. In China, this is very straightforward because of the lack of moral constraints and because all attempts from the people to claim more rights have been shut down right away, while in the "west", it goes in more subtle ways, but in the end of the day, those who are really in control are very actively trying to destroy what you call our legacies.
Chinese leaders had the chance to start it all from scratch, and seized that opportunity to educate their people to only appreciate the freedom of choosing between an Iphone 5 and a Samsung 4, and educated to consider people with LV bags are better people than those with noname bags. In the west, we are slowly but surely getting to it as well, but it takes more time because brains are still stained with their past and won't buy BS that easily. But basically the model is the same.
Considering the freedom of opinion and speech, it is more or less the same thing. The PCC has achieved to make people believe that they are China and China is them : be seen as a threat and you are directly going to prison. Well, it might be still more subtle in the West, but really, criticize the government and you're maybe going to be a followed opinion maker, but criticize the whole system in a way that's accurate and justified, rally a group of everyday people to your cause and you're going to be a terrorist. If you're not sellable as a terrorist, then enjoy your dirt being dug by the press or the fiscal pressure that's coming or any legal way governments can use to shut you down when they can't buy you off.
I would worry more about what we are becoming than what China already is, because you only need half a brain to understand how the trick works in China, but you won't see it coming at home.
That's a well written question, and a fair point 
* Own experience : I was fortunate to be born in a place where education is almost free from kindergarten to PhD, where we elect most of our representatives from town level to national level, and where press is free to report about anything. Being born in that, I took it for granted. After traveling, well, nope, it's not ^^ Apart from going on one strike to protest against some new work legislation very unfair to young workers, never really fought to get the freedom I was granted. The strike itself was peaceful, no serious harm done.
* I know at least two instances of a mostly-bloodless revolution freeing people from their own oppressive states. Portugal's Carnation Revolution and Spain the years following Franco's death.
* More agitated, but still quite civilized: the fall of the GDR, the Communist Party fall in Poland and Czechoslovak Rep. For the 2 latters, interestingly, a great deal of efficient (yet peaceful) opposition came from ecology concerns and *within* the existing laws.
For all the countries I mention, the level of education was fairly high compared to China, and there was a working civil society, unlike here.
The price of freedom ? Education and courage to speak
Scandinavian:
the level of education is a good point. not sure where I heard it, but a discussion weather democracy is possible in China, the panel discussing it more or less completely agreed it is not because the population is poorly educated, and will not be able to figure out how to vote. There was also some mumbling about the fact that the culture makes it difficult to form parties as everyone would want their own party. I also see this as a sign of poor education.
DrMonkey:
How to win at a multiple-party China
* Hot-headed nationalism
* Saber rattling, jingoism
* Well-connected with the top industrial and devoted to them
* Harsh looking law, soft in practice
* Throw in liberal amount of populism
Basically, Kuomintang, which is what the CCP became. I believe that a multiple party China would quickly switch back to the current state of things. It's a fixed point, an attractor. Education have to improve or they are condemned to be stuck to this current state.
I can belittle the Chinese people as long as none of them are on the streets demanding freedom. It's that simple.
Look at Hong Kong, they take to the streets, protests and have an impact on their society. China claims "rule of law to be a fantasy planted by western powers" but what you describe as happening in free countries is exactly acting according to rule of law. When you have rule of law and democracy, the people hold the power and no single group of people will be able to misuse that (for long at least)
The price for freedom. It's probably quite high. The western world has paid the price over centuries, look at the first and second world wars, effectively a fight for freedom, the cold war following, another, although more peaceful, fight for freedom. You can Google the numbers for how much money was spent on buying the western world freedom through all the military actions that has happened since Franz Ferdinand was assassinated in 1914.
A lot of countries have experienced invasions from foreign powers, have had bloody civil wars to rid them of despots.
Everything seems impossible until it is done.
ohChina:
I disagree. opinions like yours are precisely why I ask this question. the Hong Kong people can protest and demand freedom in streets not because today's Hong Kongers bleeded or tortured in jail , but because Hong long was a British colony . that's why I think their freedom is a legacy that inherited from British ,but not something expensive that they paid their blood or experienced persecution to get . that's why neitheHong Kong people nor you have the moral rights to belittle Chinese people . because any Chinese individual would face persecution once they lift a board that writes freedom .
you're an expat . if you protest , you can get global attention and your home country embassy will be involved and interfere and rescue you from torture. but to a Chinese citizen , it's the beginning of a life long nightmare , or maybe he will never have life anymore .
Scandinavian:
I think plenty of blood have been spilled over Hong Kong. Without British involvement in Hong Kong, China would have been spared the Opium Wars, and I am sure the British have lost a lot of men in their conquest to build their empire.
And what you say is exactly why I can continue to belittle the Chinese. Because if one person stands up and demands rights, he is the village idiot right. But if 100 million people stand up, then they are not all going to get tortured are they.
And I am pretty sure if I go down on the corner with a sign saying "Vanguard sells bad eggs" my next residence permit renewal would become a lengthy process rather than a formality. I may enjoy some sort of protection from some of the horrors that can happen to the average people if they protest. But it is these horrors that should make people protest, this is the essence of freedom. Self-sacrifice for the greater good, does that ever happen in China?
nicholasba:
ohchina,
without british people selling drugs in china HK would be still chinese, and the country would have been ruled possibly by the KMT, hence we would see a very different china. The rise and success of the CCP is due the western invasion and the corruption of KMT.
Now you would argue that chinese would have a better life with western or japanese power controlling them? CCP had the support of the allies, but also a lot of blood flowed to get rid of western and japanese invasor and be free.
In my view, HK is a bad example for what you are trying to support. You should have better use taiwan as an example.
people who once believed in freedom and fought for it eventually became the new oppressors. Would you give up power once you gained with your own hands?
And what is freedom? There is not real freedom. Freedom comes with rules (law) and when everyone is the treated the same according to law, then we are closer to what we call freedom.
Scandinavian:
those people have not gained real freedom. to have freedom you must have freedom from yourself, this is where true democracy is at play, accept that you are free to decide to be part of the rulers, but the people are free to remove you.
nicholasba:
according to your standard then, how many true democracies exist in europe?E.g is Italy or Germany true democracies?
Scandinavian:
As far as I know Germany has no recent cases of people being in power without having the peoples support. Italy..... Hmmmm, Mr. Berlusconi sure did stick to the power.
I think Switzerland is an interesting case. They put everything to a vote for the people. "Should we ban blueberry flavored gum?" lets have a referendum.
I am not sure that the US is a democracy according to my standards. You need money to win. If this is a criteria, then many countries fail according to my standards. I am sure Mutti (Merkel) has spent a lot of money campaigning, but it's party money from party membership rather than from strange fundraising events.
nicholasba:
mr berlusconi is just the byproduct of a culture.I really don't believe anymore that there are despots who magically rise to power (except those supported by CIA) without the consent of people. The masses are always stupid and easy to control. In italy people are brainwashed by mainstream media and is the elections are just a show, as at the core is always the same group of people following orders from the EU bank and those behind it.
Democracy?everyone talks about it...yeah...
Scandinavian:
Model Society : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erna_Solberg
Scandinavian:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
I thought I lived in a free society until I came to China. China is more like a modern wild west. I find home to be overbearing with petty laws and regulations. I can't legally change a kitchen tap any more. Heaven help me if I run a red light at night on the deserted streets of my small town. I'm told by my insurance that I have to replace my homes oil tank, My property taxes, electricity jumped 30%. I just came home and had my computer and cell phone seized by customs. I can publicly complain but I feel like I live in Nazi Germany, no one listens. My government is corrupt.. Freedom? To do what, be taxed to death? To be told what I have to do? There is only an illusion of freedom.
mArtiAn:
I agree, freedom the world over is permitted in varying degrees depending on how much money you have.
Scandinavian:
Well Boooohoooo.
OP is talking about freedom to say what you want, and the lack hereof which is tied to risk of unfair prosecution, and Ted has to follow the rules putting in a new tap.
Rules and regulations sometimes seems like the most retarded thing. In Ted's house, the reason why there are rules about plumbing is so Ted is not at risk of having an installation that will spill water or electrocute him. Complete nanny society right.
Since rules are generalizations to apply to all. Take another example.
Another person (let's call him Ted2) lives in an apartment complex in downtown Toronto. Ted2 has lived in China and likes the free spirit of no enforcement of rules. He puts in a new tap himself. The new tap leaks, water runs through the floor, destroys the property of the person living below. Ted2 is responsible for the destruction of his downstairs neighbors property. But he doesn't follow rules so the downstairs neighbor is now suffering from lack of freedom to live in his previously so gracefully decorated home, now a moldy wasteland. The actual water spillage was so many cubic meters that the overall watersupply is now affected by Ted2 and all his kindred spirits faulty plumbing and while at first, the impact is rising water prices, in the end it could entirely be "no clean water".
The lack of respect of rules that Ted2 is showing will impact Ted as well. The water prices will be going up, the government will impose bigger penalties for faulty tap installations etc. Ted, didn't do anything wrong, he is in fact a world class tap-installer and very well experienced in putting in pipes in many different countries. So although Ted despised the rules that prevents him from doing his own tap-fitting, he should be thankful that the rules are in place to stop Ted2's shoddy tapping.
In China, If you f%#& up a plumbing installation. Your downstairs neighbor is screwed. No one will care. Ted2 will at least be dragged to court and forced to pay, his insurance company will wash their hands under the flow of water from a well installed tap, as they are in their right to as the tap was installed by an unprofessional person.
In China Wang2 will sit and sip his tea while water is flowing through his floor destroying the lives of all those living on lower floors.
RULES ARE FREEDOM. (...if enforced fairly)
TedDBayer:
I designed and built the house. The plumber could never finish high school, dumber than dirt. I find when I hire out a job, the workmanship is crap.
Explain why the Nazis seized my computer and cell phone. They are Canadian products that may or may not have images suitable for import. WTF?? What kind of puritanical society is this? They will look at my hard drive and crack my email and skydrive?. I haven't used my locked iphone in years.
Laws are there because we have too many lawyers. Yet real crimnals get a pat on the back. I'm saying that there is no real freedom, it's just a word.
Well that’s a rather vague/leading/convoluted topic. It does, however, suggest some very interesting questions. The most concise question I can paraphrase from it is: “Why do we Western people look down on Chinese people when we were given everything?”
When Western people criticise China, they should be cognisant of the whole situation – the reason for Chinese people’s ideological enslavement, poor social graces and culture of lies. By and large we are aware. The reason is the Communist Party, its historical atrocities, grand scale theft, and its suppression of human rights, information, free speech and law.
Most Chinese people, on the other hand, are not aware of it, and have no desire to be. The reason they have no desire to be aware of ideological control is ideological control. The self-enforced, self-satisfied ignorance of Chinese people is one of the most stunning accomplishments of Communism. Most Chinese people are convinced that they already know everything worth knowing and should never find out anything or do research.
I am very much aware of the advantage of coming from a democratic country that permits and encourages ideas and expression, and I am grateful for it.
Regarding your glorification of bloodshed and sacrifice, and the suggestion that we didn’t do anything to earn the freedom we have:
Most political changes in history have indeed involved a lot of death. In many countries the cycle finally resulted in democracy. Constitutional law, freedom of thought and speech, access to information, and the ability to choose our government are now our rights, and people should appreciate the historical context.
The Communist Party, on the other hand, killed between 40 and 70 million of its own people (that’s quite a sacrifice) in order to achieve complete cultural destruction, environmental rape, physical and moral squalor, and ideological enslavement / hegemonic domination (also known as "The Chinese Dream").
If you can think independently of the society in which you live, you are a free-thinking person. Nothing is now stopping you from engaging in critical thought, researching world history, or expanding your own worldview. If you are able to do these things, you should be proud. What more Chinese people need to realise is that you can have personal pride without national pride. You can be an informed and forward-minded person in spite of your country.
nicholasba:
40 to 70 millions? wow, so many members of kmt, really...?
Scandinavian:
to get to 40-70 million you must include those who starved to death during the cultural backstep. however the reason they were starving was due to one mans evil thinking and many peoples corrupted plundering of the land.
Samsara:
Forcibly taking away the produce grown by workers while they starve to death could be called a "mistake". I'm not as generous as Chinese textbooks in my assessment.
Nicholas: I'm not referring to KMT members. About half of the deaths during Mao ZeDong's rule were due to forced starvation (also known as "mistakes"), and the other half were due to violent purges (also known as "mistakes").
mArtiAn:
Interesting reading, i'm just curious 'how' free-thinking you freely think you are. It's not an attack, for me it's an on-going social experiment. You see i'm constantly amazed at the number of intelligent, educated people who are not able to ask an objective question on the subject of 9/11. Every time I offer one it brings out their inner-coward, they retreat, become defensive, and i'm left dusting off my tin-foil hat. So once again i'm going to bring the subject to the table and present it to you, whose posts i've read so many times, because you clearly have the wit and the intelligence, i'm just curious as to whether you have the freedom of thought to recognize a glaring, but possibly deeply uncomfortable truth. If you can follow this link to the 15 minute video on the other side, and after watching it offer a reasonable argument to not investigate it's claims and suggestions further, I will eat my.......tin-foil hat.
http://www.personalgrowthcourses.net/video/911/world_trade_center_wtc_7_building_video_15
Samsara:
mArtiAn - Most conspiracy theories (including this one) are guilty of severe confirmation bias - that means only accepting data that supports a pre-formed conclusion. The finding comes first, then very partial evidence is selected, and any contrary evidence (no matter how abundant) is ignored.
While trying to exude credibility by quoting whichever "scientists" and "experts" are on-side, the production fails to mention all the scientists and experts who concluded that a jet-fuel fire was the most likely and plausible reason for the building's collapse, and totally consistent with the evidence.
If indeed the 9/11 debris was not checked for explosives residue, that is very strange, and I would agree that it warrants attention. However, while the video continuously cries "poor science", it is guilty of the exact same thing in completely failing to acknowledge the observations and findings of the majority of experts and scientists involved.
Getting to the point:
Many western countries responded to 9/11 by giving their police and national security bodies obscene secret powers. Ever since, "terrorism" has been bandied about as an excuse for undermining the most fundamental preconditions of free society. The chief beneficiary of 9/11 was the American security state.
America's judicial system is now heavily geared towards putting away whistle blowers (Snowden for example), which it always does in the name of "patriotism". When "loving your country" somehow means "not being allowed to know things", you do have to wonder if your country is fundamentally different to China.
However:
The Snowden case has received widespread press coverage, and has maybe even jolted a few "freedom-loving" Americans out of political complacency. Had the revelations been related to the Chinese government, no one in China would have heard anything (of course, everyone knows the Chinese government spies on them, so it's kind of irrelevant).
In western countries we are allowed to speculate. Conspiracy theories are (for the time being) as easily accessible as any other information. We should, however, be very worried about government organisations spying on everything we do, because that is the most fundamental subversion of freedom we face - worse even than the American church-state.
Of course, because I can have thoughts like this, I know I'm not Chinese.
Or, as Descartes famously said - "I think, therefore I'm not Chinese."
mArtiAn:
Oh well, fair play to you for actually watching it, and more so for keeping your argument civil, you'd (probably not) be surprised how quick people are to get vexed or throw the ridicule card over this subject (9/11), but I can't agree with you on your suggestion of confirmation bias, or at least not in the suggestion that it is a trait of conspiracy theorists only. In fact in this particular case those suggesting the demolition hypothesis have more to work with as they have the research of those who put forward their own findings and ideas on the collapse mechanics, on top of which they have their own research which actually includes the testing for explosive materials. I'm also not hugely confident in the depth of research made post 9/11 as the vast majority of people out there in the world are still under the impression that the pancake theory which was originally fed to the unwitting masses still stands as something that has not since been discovered to be nonsense. It also says little for those NIST scientists who admit to not checking for the possibility of explosives and admit to not understanding the collapse mechanics of buildings 1 and 2 beyond, in their words, 'the initial point of each building's collapse', that after being paid 20,000,000 to answer these questions they continue to refuse to check for the possibility of explosives. It also seems a sceptical view to suggest all conspiracy theories are pre-formed, and only survive in the minds of those engaged in circular thinking. WMD's in Iraq were a conspiracy theory that proved false. Woodward and Bernstein were conspiracy theorists who were proven correct. And freedom of thought should be continually encouraged, particularly in such difficult areas as this, otherwise we set ourselves up for being most easily and casually duped. But anyway, you gave the vid a shot and it missed. Like you say, at least we have that choice to view such materials and ask such questions. That counts for a lot. Been a long day anyway and, 'I drink, therefore I am' gonna chill with a beer. Cheers.
wuweizea:
So refreshing to know I am not alone in my thought's. Thank you Samsara and mArtiAn for your discussion on topics others willfully ignore.
MissA:
Samsara, I agree 100% with your assessment here - in fact, you've saved me the hassle of a lot of typing. I really think that you can only really appreciate and understand the culture you were raised in when you have some experience of different ones.
nicholasba:
@samsara, I was obviously ironic. When you say that the CCP killed 40 to 60 millions, while the victims of Mao s big leap forwards (BLF) have been estimated between 20 to 40 millions and the madness of Cultural Revolution killed more chinese culture than people. Purge?Maybe you've mistaken China with the Soviet Union or North Korea...
I agree with much of what is said here. In America, it isn't so much a price of getting your freedom (that war was fought and won centuries ago), but a matter of retaining it (or should I say, using it). Sansara eloguently wrote of "ideological freedom", freedom to intellectually differentiate our way of living from others halfway across the globe and taking active steps to insure that our preferred way to live is protected. In a "free" society we can do that. Those who wish to continue living "free" should be using their freedom. That is the price.
The Chinese people are the victims of a carefully choreographed and staged coo of their minds. Another Samsara quote, it "is one of the most stunning accomplishments of Communism". Indeed it is. The results are most fascinating. And this comatose state that the people are currently in is the worst enemy on both sides of the issue. "Communism" in China is failing. For the same reason it is always failed. To enforce a police state state as this, you need to transform the people's thinking. Once you do that, they are useless for anything except to be weak followers. This is China today. But a strong nation is a country of strong-minded people! Otherwise the government is just hampered with the job of being a glorified babysitter.
On the other hand, China is not ready for freedom for precisely the same reason. They will not know how to use it. They have absolutely no experience. Give a poor beggar 100 thousand dollars and he will be poor again within a year. Chinese people, having been cradled for so long, can't even fathom the costs of freedom. For most of them it is a buzzword, but they don't realize what's behind that door. China is just like the fabled elephant that was tied to a tree from birth. When the elephant was finally freed, it remained there, not knowing what to do, not even knowing what it could do.
Every government is about control. Some of us are on a short leash, while other's shackles have very long chains. But China's dilemma is a double edged. Their house of cards is falling, and they may be forced into a world they can't possibly understand. It will be an interesting decade.
IrvineWelsh:
You have some interesting points that I would agree with. However, I don't think all governments are simply about control. Some act as safety nets...
Scandinavian:
yup, look at the socialistic paradises in northern Europe, not just about control, but about guidance and helping those who need it (and ripping everyone through 50% tax of course)
IrvineWelsh:
Is it worth it though; zhat is zee question?
The Nordic countries are always held up as the epitome of societal development. I am also from a predominantly socialist leaning northern European country. All be it one that has its true form partially suppressed.
xinyuren:
If you think your governments have no control over you, then you are in a dreamland. The definition of government is control. This can be a good thing or a bad thing. It depends on how the control is administered. But control must be held or there will be chaos.
Scandinavian:
Of course government has control, but only for 4 years at a time.
A people have the leaders they deserve.
As is the entire story in Wing Commander IV...
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.. You need to always be watching and reacting to those that are out there to take away your freedom. There is one thing that is certain and it is that governments and corporations will always benefit from taking your freedom away.
It is not true to say that the freedom we enjoy today is "inherited". For example, the freedom we enjoy today on the Internet in particular is the direct result of non-profit organizations such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. If it weren't for groups like the EFF, you can bet that legislation such as SOPA, PIPA and anti-net neutrality would have been passed and you would find that the companies you pay to provide Internet access will expect you to pay more to access websites they don't like you to access. Not only that, but they would also be allowed to hand over all the information they have about you at the drop of a hat to any corporation that wanted it, for the right price of course. That's just a hop and a skip away from China's Internet and it came very close to happening here in the USA... not once, but multiple times in fact! Corporations are still actively fighting to get such garbage legislation passed so they can line their wallets.
People came together from all over the Internet to fight these kinds of legislation that restrict freedom. Politicians were hunted down one at a time by the people to ensure that the politicians were on the same page and if not, it was made clear they wouldn't get anymore votes at the next re-election. This is not freedom that was inherited, this was freedom that was demanded....and quite recently too!
Apple is a modern day example of a company that doesn't respect user's freedom. They lock their platforms down to block people from installing their own customized operating system. They don't provide the source code to iOS like how Google provides the source code to Android making it nearly impossible to fully customize the device in the same kinds of ways that groups like Cyanogenmod can do for Android. But the biggest issue is that nobody knows what iOS is doing on your phone in the background other than Apple. It could be reporting your GPS coordinates back to Apple, it could be recording your conversations and sending it to the government, it could be spying on your text messages... And it's all because Apple's operating system isn't open source like Android is. With Android, you can just jump into the source code to see exactly what it's doing but this isn't possible with Apple's operating systems because they don't want to share that information.. Not only that, but it has been proven that at one point Apple devices were, in fact, logging every step their users were taking and storing it on the phone. When it was discovered, Apple came out and said that it was unintentional... Uh huh. Sure it was.. Computers don't just randomly wake up one day and decide to track you, they do it because somebody specifically programmed them to do it. I'll tell you that the only thing that was unintentional was the fact that Apple left the information gathering on the phone in a place where somebody other than Apple could access it.
.
The NSA is an example of a modern day government organization that doesn't respect user's freedom. For reasons that are all too obvious.
I could also ramble on about homosexuals fighting for the freedom to marry the people they love. It's happening right in front of your eyes, as it's now legal for those kinds of marriages in a small handful of states and it's something they've been working towards for a long time. Freedom is never inherited. It is something that is always being built up by the culture and values of the population.
Freedom is also one of those things that can be here one day and then be gone the next. Just ask any of those Japanese Americans that were rounded up and herded into "War Relocation Camps" by the US government after Pearl Harbor.
As for why China doesn't have much freedom.. It's because they just don't value it like we do.
Just my 2 cents.
Complete freedom is unachievable due to the current nature of the human condition.
But as we are not fixed but undergoing a state of unprecedented hyperevolution I believe it could come in time.
When that time will come is anybody's guess...
xinyuren:
We are "hyperevolving" ourselves into extinction. Don't see how in the world we will ever get to that place you describe. We are just inches from death right now. The nature of humans is the same as it has always been: Petty, greedy, and selfish. That is why all human governments fail and are doomed to fail.
IrvineWelsh:
I get your point but things are largely on the whole, even including the environment, improving.
Can you think of a better time to be alive than now?
xinyuren:
Improving? How old are you? The environment is certainly not improving. Economic stability isn't improving. Human's ability to get along with each other certainly isn't improving. It is always a good time to be alive, but by almost every measurement of quality of life, things are getting worse. I am not a pessimist by any means, but I like to look squarely at the facts. The facts point to a major worldwide upheaval within the next decade.
IrvineWelsh:
Well I'm not sure where you are from?
But try being a young male in Europe or America anytime excluding the last 50 years. Chances are you would have been forced to fight in some kind of war. Might have died from a now curable disease. Froze to death. Been eaten or hunted by other humans or animals. Very little access to education in comparison to the WWW.
The list is endless... Hyperevolution
xinyuren:
it's clear to me, you don't know the definition of evolution. Societies evolve and de-evolve (they always do), but people have not evolved one iota.
IrvineWelsh:
I know exactly what evolution means.
The human brain is the evolutionary change that that I am talking about. The human brain is evolving at extraordinary rate.
Everyone thank you very much for spending time and providing very impressive answers. I need some time to think about every post and later I will reply or comment.
I believe it was Adams that stated the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants from time to time.
I will lightly touch this subject and simply say there are no free nations on earth. Those that consider themselves "free" are delusional. America has lost it's constitutional republic and fallen into the horror known as democracy. A democracy is nothing more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for dinner. As Marx told us, a democracy is essential to have socialism. As Jefferson stated, a democracy is the most vile form of government.
What's worse is America has gone even further down the road of destruction into fascism, or as fascism's founder Mussolini stated it is more correctly called corporatism. It is irrelevant if the government takes over the corporations like Nazi Germany or if the corporations take over the government like America, the end results will be the same.
wuweizea:
No, it was good old Thomas Jefferson again. So many quotes from him....my favorite founding father. The best and possibly the most relevant to the current state of affairs has to be;
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
Think private central bank called the "Federal Reserve" that is about as Federal as Federal Express and has no reserves.
andy74rc:
ROTHSCHILDS BROS. OF LONDON
"Those few who can understand the system (check book money and credit) will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on it favors, that there will be little opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear it burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests."
ANSELM ROTHSCHILD
"Give me the power to issue a nation's money; then I do not care who makes the law."
