icnif77:

 All expats in China will live for million years....because

ohChina:

It also works “great” for keeping the children of people who work with fertilizers and pesticides poorly educated.

mike695ca:

Completely agree. If they tightened that up just a little bit more China would become a whole lot more tolerable for me. Or they could just have a nation-wide minimum wage. Then most of the migrants wouldnt need to move.

RiriRiri:

Unfortunately the trend is rather going the other way.

Scandinavian:

I did read the word "selfhish" but still. What a horrible way to think of China. Are you not able to understand that the reason why the country side folk are crude, disgusting people, is because of the hukou system. Had it not (never) been there, there would be more synergy between city and country side as people would move in both directions. Don't blame the crude people for their crudeness, blame the system for fostering uneducated imbeciles (yeah, I mean the ones in the cities too) 

RiriRiri:

Which is why I said "a solution by the guys who created the problem".

I'm as much in favor of freedom and equity as the next guy, but the reality of Chinese society is that you can't have those. I feel sorry for the countryside folks who never will have a fair chance in life, but I also know that, regardless, any kind of moral stand on my part has every chance to turn against me, and that it's not my place nor my job nor my duty to fix their problems. I don't blame them personally, but reality being what it is, I'm just better off with them as far as possible from me.

Alas, I am selfishly fully in support of a stricter Hukou system in regard to my own quality of life, because sadly too many people which have no business being in big cities and are clearly not adaptable to metropolitan life are ruining everyone's environment. Sad to think, sad to say, but true.

xinyuren:

This is an interesting discussion. mike and Riri, are you in favor of a segregation system in China?

mike695ca:

@Xin,  if we are talking completly selfishly?? Then yes I am. Where I have spent the  majority of my time (  Guangdong)  There is a vast  gap between the local cantonese and the Migrant workers.   To put it as simply as possible. I love Cantonese people, and I hate peasants.  So to have them gone would make everything ten times better.  Yes there would be huge economic and social  problems that would come. But I am talking my own selfish fantasy.  

Every spring festival, when all the workers screw off, Guangzhou is a dream city. I can sit on the subway without being stared at, yes I said sit.  People follow the rules when driving,  no one is spitting or pissing everywhere.  Its a perfect place. 

Coming from someone who has married into a Cantonese family,  they would much prefer it as well and feel the benefits would far outweigh any economic losses.  Factories have been moving out of the cities for years now.  The people from other cities come in and set up business that produce a poorer quality and undercut local prices creating all prices to fall, slowly eliminating small ( local)  business in the areas.  Plus life would just be better for them. 

@Scan,  I completly disagree that a lack of a hukou system would create a flow of people going both ways.  It would be even more one sided in the cities.  Please show me an example of where people freely moving en mass to the countryside.  In all of History.   People move to cities. Its just the way it is.  

I would prefer a visa Hukou system.  Where people from other provinces must apply for work permits.  Educated people could work in offices in the cities around the country where they can find better jobs.  Factories are already moving away, and China easily has the logistics to put the factories in the provinces in less developed china, which would naturally develop these places and keep the workers there with their families and away from me.   Plus this would create for useless government jobs which they certianly love, so i dont know why it isnt already in place. 

RiriRiri:

The Hukou system is a segregation system already. So the answer is pretty much self contained. 

So, you aren't really asking me whether I support of segregation, I suppose. Are you using this word for its a strong negative connotation?

xinyuren:

I'm asking the question neutrally.  In early 20th century America,  Whites didn't want minorities in their neighborhood.  They thought segregation was a good thing.  The minorities, not so much.  As the middle class in China continue to expand, I see this playing out again here.  You seem to support perpetuating it. In fact you sound just like what the White families said back then: keep them out of our neighborhood. So I am actually asking you what I said.

RiriRiri:

@Mike: there is already such a system. Administration-wise, outsiders from another province must go through a procedure for getting a residence permit (in the form of a provincial temporary ID card). The permit is granted mostly to students and legal workers. But you surely can imagine than most people don't have such an ID and don't care about having one either, since the incentives are little and there is no movement restriction.  Plus, now people can easily change their Hukou, by buying a property (a sensitive thing among all), and enjoy all the benefits, such as overloading public schools. I'm very sorry to notice that a significant part of the putonghua-speaking peasant-mannered morons swarming in Guangdong nowadays have local ID cards (not talking about factory workers, but about the semi-middle class with enough money to stack up their family in an apartment way too small).

@xinyuren: Yeah, that's why I asked, I was afraid of the racial card. So, here we go, racial segregation has no relation with what we are talking about here. Or please call me a racist and explain me how.
Social separation is part of life. I don't accept uninvited guests in my backyard, especially if they shit everywhere and yell as a basis for communication. Would you? I know the scales are different but the underlying logic of total freedom VS. the restrictions one's behavior imposes are the same.

xinyuren:

I'm not playing a race card.  I told you I asked neutrally because I am neutral on the topic.  But your comments are interesting.  Uninvited guests in your backward?  Are you Chinese? Those peasants are the family of somebody living in the city. And the last time I read something about this, they are going to be invited by the government to join you in living in the city.  Agreed, this is not racial segregation, but the verbiage is almost exactly the same.  And your (and mike's) attitude is exactly the same.  'We have to keep the rabble out'.  Which is why neither "solution" will meet your standards.  The more the rabble are blocked from entering, the more actively they will fight to get in. I think this is an interesting discussion, because I can see some people, even in light of recent history, will make the same decisions as in the past regarding social problems.

RiriRiri:

Tell that to Hong Kongers.

Yeah or to any country with a border for that matter.

My backyard was rhetorical by the way.

RiriRiri:

Wow wow wow hang on a second, I never said it was a good thing for the country, I only said it was a good thing for me.

xinyuren:

My point exactly. You already said "I would entirely support the strictest of houku rules..." or something like that. Everyone is quick to note what is good for them.  Second or third thoughts go to what is good for everybody else. Don't take it personally.  It's a universal trait.

RiriRiri:

Which is what "On a pure selfish scale" meant. I happen to also think it would be a good thing overall for a number of reasons, but that's purely incidental and I wouldn't put those over my own benefit. Don't care, not here to fix the country, I play chaotic neutral here.

xinyuren:

So we have come full circle.  You have answered my initial question, would you support a segregation system.  Your answer is yes. I'm pretty sure mike's answer is the same. 

mike695ca:

@xin  , while I want a segregation system and dont care if im called racist or a dick or whatever, i do have one last thing to say. 

Most migrant workers do not want to migrate.  This is different from blacks not being allowed to study with whites.  They dont have a choice. The money for their families are in the larger cities.  This is why as Factory wages increase in Smaller provinces, you are seeing workers move back home.    Which is why I made it clear that their are options, viable options that could make most happy. 

This is much more complicated than simple race.  Its like opening up a time machine and have people from the 1500's come move in next door.  Of course there will be clashes.   

So I feel having segregation could be a great thing  for all involved if  things where implemented to promote development in these areas.  Having factories forcibly moved from guangdong where they dont have local manpower, to say Hunan, would grow local wages, plus it would force development in all areas, schooling for the children there,  satelite businesses, such as food, IT support, parts, whatever.  All without leaving their families.  Which is what the masses want anyways. 

Its already slowly happening anyways, as the larger cities are getting too expensive and companies are forced to move inland. So helping that along sounds great to me!

So as you flipped it into a negative thing , it can also be done to you. Are you against rural development? Education?? Are you against National equality??  Because Chinas massive migration is the greatest reason for the dichotomy as it stands now, 

xinyuren:

@mike - I don't support or stand against any Chinese policy.  I am not a citizen of China and anyways, there are no real satisfying answers.  Only bandaids. As I said, I am neutral and I asked the question neutrally.  My interest is in your answers and the reason behind them.  I didn't label you or anyone else a racist, so no need to take offense.  Thank you for your detailed answer.

andyinshenyang:

My experience is very different to that of RiriRiri and Mike.  I find the local migrant workers, and this is a massive generalization, to be much friendlier than the natives and much harder workers.  Yes, they stare more initially but, after getting to know them, I find them to be great company.  This is in contrast to many of the locals who are often looking at ways to exploit you.

RiriRiri:

Are you talking about "peasant workers"? Like those working on construction sites?

Because it's not about them at all, you might be confusing.

Lord_hanson:

He could be planning to build new cities and giving strong economic insentives for people for the countryside to move to the new cities. Free apartments for example.

xinyuren:

They have no choice.  There is an urgent need for modern farming.  China has to import food to make ends meet.  Clearing out the countryside to make way for modern farms is the best way to sustain China.  The additional benefit is they force the poor countryside people to become more educated and modern.  The initial results will not be good.  It will be chaotic.  They will learn there is no shortcut to modern society.  Unfortunately China is trying to do things too fast, which is fascinating to watch.....for foreigners.

DrMonkey:

@xinruyen Factor-in the problem with having enough clean water and polluted soils. I don't think China can avoid importing food.

xinyuren:

yeah,  good point.  a good portion of their soil is unusable.

Scandinavian:

@xin. More educated people are more likely to be aware that there are alternatives to the current system. 

Burak43:

I remember I had a class on Chinese agricultural economics. What was incredibly interesting was that the Chinese agriculture was, and still is, quite advanced compared to the general income of the country. Already at the end of the 1800's some techniques that the rest of the world discovered in the 1960's (the green revolution) where in use in parts of China. Yeah, there are ways to to make farming more efficient in China, but the gains aren't as large as what I suspect a lot of people might think. I don't think it is possible for China to be self sufficient.

Lord_hanson:

Perhaps they are paid to come and annoy foreigners.