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Q: A question for native English speakers
Teaching jobs that don't need high degree of fluency such as teaching kids English . As we all know that Chinese parents care too much about the backgrounds of teachers so as non-native English speakers we sometimes have to lie about our background ! Does it bother you that some expats climb on your nationality ?
Not in the least.
as far as i am concerned, everyone applying for a job has an equal opportunity.
However, be careful about lying as you will have to give your passport for legitimate jobs.
you will be caught in a lie, so be prepared for the consequences.
Up to you.
Do not lie about your origin rather prove yourself to them. I am a non native English Teacher and I didn't lie to my employer. I told them about everything straight forward and they gave me a chance of an interview and I proved myself.
Do not start your professional life with a lie.
I didn't lie to anyone ! It's just my employers concern ! He told me if anyone of the parents asks you you should say that you are a native speaker , nobody asked me any question till now as long as where very nice to each other .....,
note : it's just a part time job and no big deal !!
Shining_brow:
Why is it "no big deal" just because it's a part-time job? Are the students less important? Is their money different? Are their needs and expectations not worthy of being respected??
thefidu881:
Shining is right on top about that. Do not waste the hard earn money of the parents and the future of the kids if you really do not have qualification to teach.
Depends on their level of English (which goes the same for anyone from my country as well). If they suck, then it looks bad on us (again, even if my own country-peoples). If they're good, I don't mind so much.
I know a guy who probably should say that, but he didn't, and it was the first question of the interview.... :( shoulda lied!
I have run into that before... I knew something was off when the girl who claimed to be from Canada introduced herself by saying...
"My name is Vilma from Vinnipeg. I have come to vish and vash your vindows!"
Okay... she didn't say that last part but what she meant to say is Wilma from Winnipeg (medium sized city in Canada).
I just looked at her, smirked and walked away... obviously from Russia but I didn't have anything to gain by calling her out and she is just trying to make a living like everyone else.
Definitely, I would not pretend to be what I am not. I would feel miserable knowing that I get such a respect I don't deserve based on a lie. It's a damage to yourself and to other non-native English teachers.
Amjed, I know that some employers encourage it, but you should say the truth. If you prove to be a good teacher, if the parents see their kids at home saying things or singing in English and see that they are happy about the English and their teacher, they won't care about your origin.
One thing that foreigner teachers should seek all the time is their dignity no matter what the rule of face in China requires from you.
"Teaching jobs that don't need high degree of fluency"
All teaching jobs require a high degree of fluency. When teaching 5 year olds, it is important to teach them proper pronunciation. Bad habits learned at the early stages are extremely difficult to change.
What if I claimed to be from Pakistan, went to a school to teach Pakistani and I did a shitty job. Would I be an insult to Pakistani teachers?
Yes it does bother me. You are purposefully tarnishing the image of native English speakers.
It is even more of an insult for dark skinned non natives to portray themselves as
native speakers. Think of how you are harming the chances of other dark-skinned teachers who are actually native speakers.
thefidu881:
Dark skinned ? Do your bottom shine like stainless steel? Grow up dude....and gain some knowledge instead of limiting yourself to A for Apple and B for Bingo...
Englteachted:
And what term would you use to describe Indians, Pakistanis, Africans etc, who are not light skin. Whether we like it or not, Chinese are more judgmental when it comes to non-whites.
thefidu881:
I agree with you upon Chinese perception of human based on skin color.
For Indians and Pakistanis you can use 'Asian ethnicity '. By the way in north west of Pakistan, people are white enough to be compared with white natives. I am from that region and fairly prove your point of Chinese addiction of white skin. Also my employer preferred my white skin along with my qualification, which so far is unpredictable for the locals here. This is just for your information and you can google about the 'Pukhtoon' or 'Pathan' population within Pakistan and India, majority of them are white skin.
Keeping aside the racial discrimination, let me tell you that skills and abilities are not divided on the basis of skin colors as black or dark skin people also have the same abilities which we owe but your comment is totally based on racism. Being born in a native English speaking country is not your achievement rather using that platform to become a good teacher and a human being can be. Everyone is doing their best to survive in the world so you will take your share and so do they.
I am totally against lying about one's origin to gain timely benefit as it can not only effect the responsibilities but the image of the country they pretend to be a national of as well. I hope you are clear about it by now and wish you could really be a nice teacher and person. Regards
Englteachted:
"For Indians and Pakistanis you can use 'Asian ethnicity '. By the way in north west of Pakistan, people are white enough to be compared with white natives"
Asian ethnicity includes Japanese and a bunch of other countries , I know many pakis and indians are very fair skin, therefore 'dark skinned is accurate.
jetfire9000:
Urdu is the main language of Pakistan. Are you sure you should be teaching English...? I've never heard the word "Pakistani" to refer to a language in that country. Sorry, gotta' downvote you for this.
Englteachted:
Oh my god I do not know the many languages of Pakistan . I will quit teaching English now!
speaking from my own experience telling the truth has got ZERO jobs the moment i ''changed'' my country of origin to Canada i landed 3 jobs in 1 week
thefidu881:
You may have landed three jobs in a week but you are doing the same what you could have done with your original origin. You are living a fake life and your earning is a fraud.
Well . I have been doing this job for a couple of months and I feel uncomfortable so I am quitting soon ! BTW ninety percent of the teachers I met are non-native speakers and they are told to lie about their origins ! I don't blame those people who want to make for living !!!
thefidu881:
I heard of people lying about their original origin while dating girls here but this is for the first time I learnt people(that too 90%) lie while teaching. My employer never asked me to lie about anything because they are looking at the progress of the school and asking me to extend the contract. The parents get a shock at first hand when I tell them about my nationality and appreciate my efforts because they follow the classes online via cam. If you do not have the professional requirements for teaching English better engage yourself in other fields.
I knew a russian dude claimed to be from Canada too. And in his profile picture in the lobby he was draped in a Canadian flag.
So your from Canada?
da! ...... eh?
I heard he got fired for being super creepy. So in that instance, yeah i didnt like it at all.
On a side note. I have a friend from Eastern Europe. Not a non native speaker, but certainly fluent. He would have troubles getting jobs too, but as soon as he got it, it never became an issue again. If your good at your job, your nationality becomes meaningless.
What's the difference between native speaking language and mother tongue?
A passport ain't enough nowadays. Most people in China would take a black guy for example for either a Black African or a Black American or a Black African American. Suspicions pop up if ever he happens to hold a British Passport. The fact is that a non-native who is near-native speaker and even native fluency speaker would be discriminated based on his skin or his facial appearance. I believe that there's a sad misunderstanding of the job of English teacher. Facts proved that some native speakers have a very low understanding of the English grammar, some don't have the bit skill to transfer the knowledge to the students. It's a matter of vocation. Unfortunately, in this part of the world teachers of the English language or any other language are hired to play the clown rather than to share the knowledge primarily needed by students and their parents. Things look quite different within universities where the language teaching is more semantic than amorphe.
PS. To she who judges those who lie to earn their bread, especially if they prove to do well in their job after the lie, I say : who am I to judge others? Am I crystal clean myself in my life? Mankind cherishes his own evils, hide them in his back pocket then finger out others. Aren't we hypocrite? Who's going to sit still and wait for others to push him forward. Life is a flowing river.
Love to all 
thefidu881:
Agreeing to your points regarding natives and the discrimination in the ESL field I dare say portraying a fake nationality is a fake start. It is based on deception which is clearly hurting the people who trusted you in a long run.
I have clearly mentioned above while encouraging all those capable teachers to gain a respectable space in the society instead of scolding thyself everyday for something you don't deserve.
JacobJohn:
You are what you are and it's not your fault that you're not a native English teacher. Stick to what you understand right to be right. If you believe that wrong is right, then do as you understand it and be ready to deal with the consequences. Likewise when you know that wrong is not right, yet you choose to be wrong.
The consequences of choosing to be correct in all your actions are by far more than when you're lying. The difference is in that you will not be ashamed of your actions and decisions you've taken nor will shame any of the non native teachers.
The op can do whatever helps him to survive, but life it's not only about that.
We complain about how immoral Chinese are, how ready are to scam us, but when it comes to show what we are made of, we prove to not be so different.
The op asks what do we think about this very sensitive matter. In saying that he should not lie about his background it's not judging him or anyone at all.
If you add as an argument what consequences are, for him and other non native teachers, I believe it's a great advice that should not be ignored.
It's a responsibility that should be carried on by any of us, because what we do in China, it happens to affect everyone, somehow.
For the last, I am persuaded that the op has asked a very important question because he is very much concerned with the moral issue of the problem. My answer is...do not lie. But it's up to you to decide what to do.
The problem is - too many places only want a passport, or a look... they don't really care about ability or knowledge!
So, while it goes against my normal stance - I'd say if you are good (fluent, knowledgeable, etc), but a NNS, then lie in the first instance, until you get past the interview.. then tell them!
(btw, I'll probably be doing a doctorial thesis on just this subject - how locals have no idea what a 'native speaker' person really sounds like... any willing participants, pls pm me 
:D:D)
Ecehomo:
Amazing, actually I've participated to a Thesis survey (online) from an Asian PhD student in Australia on a similar topic. :)
There is nothing that I hate more than a liar.
Robk:
Then in China... you pretty much hate everyone with a murderous rage lol.
Serious schools (understand: foreign owned and run) won't care whether or not you are a native speaker, they will ask for qualifications and experience, then will arrange an interview (online or not) where they can evaluate your English proficiency and pronunciation. Chinese schools that expect you to chimp out during classes and plan to drag you around town like a monkey will require you to be a native speaker (and probably white), so they can scan your passport and post it on their website to give some prestige to their crappy school. Your welcome.
When I came to China, I had to face the skin color barrier (I'm latin american), made a few demo classes with other teachers on 3 or 4 schools (Spain and Poland colleagues for example), and they always got the job.
I decide not to get angry or sad, just kept going to our agency every day, taking all the interviews with different principals, (always saying the true about my country, qualifications, experience), I knew the way was going to be a little hard, but after one month I got my actual job on august 2013.
I've been here since then (Hunan), I liked the city, with my basic chinese I can speak with the students, parents, teachers.
I just did what I felt I was supposed to do, this is who I am, if they want me, it will be for what I am.
Thanks for reading.
When I came to China, I had to face the skin color barrier (I'm latin american), made a few demo classes with other teachers on 3 or 4 schools (Spain and Poland colleagues for example), and they always got the job.
I decide not to get angry or sad, just kept going to our agency every day, taking all the interviews with different principals, (always saying the true about my country, qualifications, experience), I knew the way was going to be a little hard, but after one month I got my actual job on august 2013.
I've been here since then (Hunan), I liked the city, with my basic chinese I can speak with the students, parents, teachers.
I just did what I felt I was supposed to do, this is who I am, if they want me, it will be for what I am.
Thanks for reading.
JacobJohn:
Enhorabuena por la decision tomada. De esto se trata, ademas de las necesidades materiales, quedan las cuestiones morales. El pan de cada dia,, desde luego, quien no lo necesita, pero no a cualquier precio. Ya es amargo el ganarselo como para amargarse aun por perder uno su dignidad al andar con mentiras por la vida.
Keep the good work and be sure that what you've got there it's earned through honesty.
When I came to China, I had to face the skin color barrier (I'm latin american), made a few demo classes with other teachers on 3 or 4 schools (Spain and Poland colleagues for example), and they always got the job.
I decide not to get angry or sad, just kept going to our agency every day, taking all the interviews with different principals, (always saying the true about my country, qualifications, experience), I knew the way was going to be a little hard, but after one month I got my actual job on august 2013.
I've been here since then (Hunan), I liked the city, with my basic chinese I can speak with the students, parents, teachers.
I just did what I felt I was supposed to do, this is who I am, if they want me, it will be for what I am.
Thanks for reading.
I find some of the non native speakers are good teachers, but on the other hand they don't do good fluency or proper oral testing or speaking skills. I am not pointing fingers at any specific group, but even in native countries there are people who can't speak properly.
I am always having to correct or re-teach things that are not done properly.
In my book if you are not qualified then don't do it. Don't make work harder for those of us who are .
First, I'm a native born American. In fact, the fourth generation of native born Americans..
If the person pronounces correctly, uses good grammar and can overcome any heavy accent when teaching, I'm not bothered. More power to them. I have a friend from the UK who's difficult to understand sometimes. But what bothers me is when non-native speakers with poor pronunciation claim to be native English speakers.
Attending an end of summer camp event, I was introduced to 2 black men. I was told one was from England and the other from the US. Both had accents from African countries. I asked one where he was from, and he first said South Carolina! Giving him the benefit of the doubt, allowing that he might have recently moved to the states, I said, "No, where did you go to America from?" Finally, he admitted he was from Ghana. The other also first insisted he was British, but finally admitted to being from the Ivory Coast. They were very good at getting the kids to participate in singing, with their energetic manner. But they pronounced the "TH" like "T" ("tink" for "think," "tanks" for "thanks"), a common problem for many non-native English speakers. Others pronounce "TH" like "S" like the Chinese students. This is one of the basics of pronunciation, so it's in my second lesson. Since most Chinese English teachers--even the best English speakers--can't hear the differences, the greedy job agencies can slip these poor speakers into teaching jobs easily. But If these are good individuals who want to be real teachers, they would make an effort to improve their pronunciation so they could teach properly. If you speak no better than the people you teach, you shouldn't be teaching.
sorrel:
you are not taking into account the many accents from each 'native English' speaking country.
How many different accents are there on America?
how can one be 'better' than the other?
mldardar:
sorrel I do understand that every native English country has people that have heavy accents and/or poor grammar. Being from Louisiana, I know areas where people still speak French at home, so many have Cajun accents. We often joke about the poor grammar and pronunciation in parts of New Orleans. But remember the news broadcasters. Although they speak in perfect English on camera, at home they speak in the natural way of their family. So teachers should do the same when they're on their job. Of course, poorly educated people shouldn't be considered for teaching anymore than for TV broadcasting.
Whoever is teaching, native or non-native English speaker, should speak clearly and have good pronunciation and grammar skills. I believe the non-native speakers with those qualities would get hired without having to lie.
I find it strange that although the question says it's for NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKERS, most replies seem to be from non-native English speakers. Or native English speakers with poor English grammar and writing skills! So the problem is obvious. And it's the students who are the victims.
What's even stranger is that a BA is required to get a foreign expert certificate, so people with years of experience in a professional working environment (engineering, local government, legal assistants, real estate agents, radio broadcasters, etc) trained in public speaking, therefore possessing excellent communication skills are denied because of only having an Associates degree or no degree, while people who can barely talk their way out of a paper bag are accepted because they have a BA from their country!!! And as we know, most of the head Chinese English teachers have a BA but most can't prove it by their speaking abilitiy nor their listening comprehension.
Diceaurora:
I agree 100% with your observation. It is the students that suffer from poor grammar, unexperienced teachers, or people who are just not teachers at all.
mldardar:
Thank you. Doesn't seem to be many native English speaking teachers interested in the question.
Being native is not a skill. Get over it, you are not special. In fact you are worse than non natives, because most of you can only speak 1 language.
Neither is the pronunciation of the native speaker very clearly. Some British accent for example is terrible, so are some from us and australia and SA.
In my good old country we don't even hire native speakers because they are useless. Can't even speak the same language as the students.
99% of the so called native speakers here have not the qualification to actually be a teacher, so just stop bragging about non native teachers who "steal" your "jobs".
ps.: i m not a teacher and not working in any english speaking sector. Just what some people think reminds me of the wwII
Englteachted:
When teaching a Language, knowing that language fluently is a skill.
mldardar:
Being native is not a skill. Get over it, you are not special. In fact you are worse than non natives, because most of you can only speak 1 language.
Reply: The question was addressed to NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKERS period. It wasn't asking for NON-NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKERS with poor English to justify their jobs they lied to get, passing on their poor pronunciation to sincere learners!
You're right, being a native is not a skill. Speaking well enough to teach a language is an acquired skill.
You said: Neither is the pronunciation of the native speaker very clearly. Some British accent for example is terrible, so are some from us and australia and SA.
Correct English: There are many native speakers who don't speak clearly (or who have poor pronunciation).. Some British accents, for example are hard to understand. So are some from the US, Australia and SA (did you mean South Africa, South America or Saudi Arabia?).
Reply: Spanish or Portuguese (in Brazil) are the first languages in South America, not English. In South Africa there are various English accents. But yes, in every country there are many people who speak their language poorly, either due to poor education, family/locale or no desire to improve.
You said: In my good old country we don't even hire native speakers because they are useless. Can't even speak the same language as the students.
Correct English: In my good old country, we don't even hire native speakers because they are useless--can't even speak the same language as the students.
Reply: You're speaking for your whole "good old country?" You know everything that goes on there? Maybe it's very small. They don't hire any native speakers? Not native English speakers, not native French speakers, etc. How about native speakers of your own language?
You're obviously ignorant of language teaching methods. One of the basics is "Never speak to the student in his/her own language!" This is because most students will not try to understand as long as they know the teacher will eventually say it in their language. Sometimes for beginers, an assistant is used until the students start becoming dependent on them.
Your said: 99% of the so called native speakers here have not the qualification to actually be a teacher, so just stop bragging about non native teachers who "steal" your "jobs".
Correction: 99% of the so-called native speakers here don't have the qualifications to actually be teachers, so stop complaining about non-native teachers "stealing" your "jobs."
Reply: First you said your "good old country" doesn't hire native speakers. Now you say 99% of the "so-called native speakers" don't have qualifications to actually be teachers! So you mean your good old country does hire native speakers, 99% of them without the qualifications to be teachers?! What a good old country! So good of them to hire unqualified teachers. Maybe they hire native speakers of your language who aren't qualified to teach English.
Most of the time when people use percentages in an argument, it's nothing but a BIG FAT LIE! So get over it, and stop bragging about your good old country.
dom87:
you blame my english and try to correct me in the internet?
wonderful you are one true retard. Should I look now for every mistake you made in any of your post to say ROFL WHAT THE HECK YOU ARE A TEACHER???
the difference is I am not an english teacher, nor do i want to be a classroom monkey here.
seriously most people give a shit in a forum how they write. Who the hell needs grammar nazis? go back to your hole where you creeped out.
anyways you don't even understand the meaning. so no need to mark all your brainless mistakes from your "replies". keep on being proud to be hired because you can nothing but being born in the right place :|
mldardar:
Again, THE QUESTION WAS TO NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKING TEACHERS!!! But now I understand why you responded with such IGNORANT COMMENTS? You thought the question was for English learners who believe just because they know a little English, they are entitled to get teaching jobs even if their pronunciation is no better or worse than the students they would be teaching. No, it wasn't for you since you are neither a native English speaker nor a teacher. This one time I'll forgive your typos and ignorance.
Tip #1: Next time, don't use Google to translate your comments.
Tip #2: Reply to questions you understand, and that pertain to you or your good old country.
Tip #3: Stick to the good old language of your good old country, because every time you write, you provide more proof of your ignorance of proper English, and I'll use it.
Teaching a language does require fluency in the language to teach properly. Children learn correct pronunciation just as easily as poor pronunciation. But once they've learned poor pronunciation, it can be very difficult to correct when they're older. That's why so many in high school say "everysing," "anysing," "nosing" and "somesing" They also say "feesh" for "fish" and "heem" for "him" and "wery vell" for "very well." Meanwhile, after you've done your damage and got paid for it, good teachers (native and non-native English speakers) have to undo your damage in middle or high school.
By the way, if you see no wrong in lying to get a job teaching kids a language you aren't fluent enough in to be teaching, what other wrong things might you be capable of, amjed? You prey on people who can't recognize your poor English. So you lie to get peoples' money. Isn't that what a scammer does?
mldardar:
amped, No one told me. Reading your question, I could tell it wasn't written in the grammar that educated native English speakers would use.
Here's something for you to keep in mind. If you ever teach high school kids, they'll recognize poor grammar, For a while, you might fool some who think everything an English teacher (Chinese or foreign) says is correct. But most of their English exam is on grammar, training them for the college entrance exams. It's one of the most common complaints about the education system by.students and Chinese English teachers. They'd prefer to focus on speaking skills, and learning idioms.They all ask the same question when we first meet, "How can I improve my spoken English?" These days, they listen to lots of English music, mostly North American singers, and watch lots of American TV shows. Although their pronunciation when speaking is poor, I've heard some sing in nearly perfect English! Many can now hear some of the differences in accents. Some have even asked me to teach American vs Australian pronunciation. I've also been told by friends who are students at a teachers' college that they find it difficult to understand their foreign teacher, who's a friend of mine from Scotland. So all of us foreign teachers, native English speakers as well as non-native (those who take pride in their work) need to continue honing our teaching skills.
