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Posts: 27

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Q: Should Marvel's Iron Fist have been Chinese?

I've been discussing this on other forums, but I'm curious if anyone here's ever spoken with any local Chinese about this.

 

Some people say that he should have been Chinese because there's no Asian superheroes, it's a chance to celebrate asian culture, and the only reason the character wasn't asian in the comics was because it was made decades ago. 

 

Others say that it would be worse if they made him Chinese. The first Chinese Marvel hero, and he's a kung-fu master?

 

What's the difference between celebrating a part of Chinese culture vs making a steretype? 

 

(They already cast a white guy btw. I just find the debate interesting)

8 years 7 weeks ago in  Arts & Entertainment - China

 
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Interesting topic.

 

I am thoroughly in favour of more racial diversity in film. I think Idris Elba would have been a marvelous James Bond, for example, though that turned out to be an idle rumour. However - I am so god damn tired of the imitation version of this argument from Chinese people.

 

"Why does such-and-such a movie have no Chinese stars?"

 

This complaint is only superficially about ethnic diversity, and actually about wanting people to praise China. This topic has come up a lot recently, leading me to believe that Chinese people are being prompted to be vocal about it. It seems to be a modern addition to the long list of “poor China” (victim mentality) arguments that Chinese people are taught to recite (Rape of Nanjing, Colonial Humiliation, etc.).

 

Here’s what I have to say:

 

1. The argument uses the PRETENCE of being about racism, but is really about nationalism.

 

If Western movies started casting more Japanese or Korean actors, this would not in any way make Chinese people happy. Chinese people are simply insecure about Chinese people not being famous. The are told that their “culture” is so interesting to foreigners, while China produces nothing that any foreigner is interested in.

 

2. If China would like Chinese actors to be recognised, China should MAKE GOOD MOVIES.

 

Currently China exclusively makes embarrassing drivel that no one outside China wants to watch. Unfortunately Chinese culture teaches people to expect praise without going to the effort of deserving it. So instead of making anything worthy of recognition, they find foreign things that have achieved acclaim and complain that those things don’t contain Chinese people.

 

3. Chinese actors are just so god damn bad.

 

Any given male Chinese actor can do one of two things (but not both): One is a brooding facial expression. This is not acting - it's simply the easiest possible facial expression a man can do. In Chinese movies this is supposed to indicate that characters have "deep" emotional conflicts. The other is putting on a stupid voice and acting "gay". Chinese people find this hilarious. Stupid people being “gay” is the entire basis of Lost in Thailand. It’s painfully unfunny to anyone from a country with intellectual culture, but Chinese people genuinely love this shit.

 

Chinese actresses are chosen for their slim figures and white skin, because the casting process involves having sex with the director and other rich fat-asses. Pretty much all of them are vain, shallow, and have no personality.

 

Try watching Blackhat (directed by Michael Mann, who once was a formidable director). It is ruined by a Chinese actress. She can’t act. She says her lines, and I think her awkward pronunciation is supposed to distract viewers from the fact that she has no acting ability or character. A Chinese accent is not a substitute for personality. In Western movies Chinese actresses are completely wooden, and in Chinese movies they act like vain, shallow, sulky girls which they are.

 

4. China's movies have significantly less racial diversity than Hollywood’s.

 

China doesn't cast white actors (or, god forbid, black actors) in starring roles to even a fraction of the extent that Hollywood casts non-white people. If China would like there to be more ethnic diversity in movies, why doesn’t China make more ethnically diverse movies?

 

Unfortunately, the West is very sensitive to accusations of racism, however flimsy. China (and Islam, though it’s not related to this topic) has learnt to exploit Western cultural sensitivity for all it’s worth.

 

Now Hollywood makes frequent attempts (Iron Man 3, Looper, Gravity, etc, etc, etc.) to appease China by randomly flattering China in its movies. China’s response is to continue being “affronted” and become ever more demanding. Stop doing it, Hollywood. It’s embarrassing.

 

5. Regarding Hollywood’s whitewashing of movies:

 

I think Hollywood should take a more progressive stance than “we are justified in casting white actors because they are more bankable”. Hollywood is in a position to dictate what people want, and their fiscally cautious attitude towards non-white actors is lamentable. I think movies should cast interesting people with character (which sadly precludes mainland Chinese). I’m all for traditionally white characters being played by non-white people. I similarly don’t give a rats what race a kung fu practitioner is.

 

RiriRiri:

Don't you see a contradiction in

- "casting interesting people with character"

and

- taking a more progressive stance in casting non-white actors (rephrasing)?

 

Are you in favor or traditionally non-white characters being depicted by white people? Why/why not? Why aren't people shocked about the under presence of whites in basketball teams?

8 years 7 weeks ago
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Posts: 27

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(And can anyone tell me exactly how to upload an avatar..?)

Sinobear:

Avatars have to be online. Get the URL of the pic you want and paste it in the address field in your profile.

8 years 7 weeks ago
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Daredevil:

Yeahhh can't find that . Thanks though.

8 years 7 weeks ago
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8 years 7 weeks ago
 
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Technically, there is an Asian superhero (or 2... or..??).

 

The last X-men movie had Fan BingBing in it.

 

Also - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asian_superheroes

 

Although I get what you're saying... Why aren't they leading stars of Hollywood superhero movies?

 

Answer me this, Batman... if China has a star promoted, how will other surrounding nations feel? If Japan has one, how will other surrounding nations feel (especially China, which will go all whiney on us). If the Philippines have their own superhero shining star, how will that go down in China?

 

In principle, I totally agree with you. Superpowers shouldn't be racist - and I see no logical reason why a superpower of any kind shouldn't be able to manifest itself in anyone.. theoretically, all powers, and all ethnicities, should be represented.

 

Now... how to make them 'interesting'?

 

Could/should Thor meet up with Sun WuKong and have a punch-up? If that happens, who wins? Wouldn't Chinese be really pissed off if Monkey doesn't beat Thor's arse??

 

Perhaps introduce While Snake? Or any of the other spirits of China?

 

I'd be interested to see some Anime get made into real person movies - perhaps starting with Akira.

 

 

Daredevil:

Oh yeah. Fanbingbing as Blink. 

 

The next one's got Jubilee and Psylocke too. I guess that's something.  

 

But supporting characters =/= lead characters. 

 

Would love it if the next Batman or Superman is Chinese.

8 years 7 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

A Chinese Superman or Batman? Hell no! Go get your own superheroes!

 

A Chinese variant of Superman or Batman - sure, go for it... but don't call them that! (unless you're creating a whole new world... ie, Chatman is not in Gotham - and shouldn't be having a Choker or Mr Zheeze. And don't put Zuoperman man in Zhongopolis).

 

If you want a superhero that can fly.. no probs. Or super strength.. go for it. (wait... isn't that Monkey?)

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Another thought - canon.

 

Lots of fans got pissed when LotR had Arwen rescue Frodo, when it should have been Glorfindel.

 

When Wizard of Earthsea was made into a movie, Sparrowhawk and the people of Gont, in a world where most people were not white. Thus, when most were white, it pissed off a lot of fans - the change was unnecessary.

 

Heimdall in the Thor movies... WTF? A black Norse god??? There's a damn good evolutionary reason for Norse being white! (although, I can see the argument that the Norse gods aren't actually Norse....)

 

So - the idea of casting an Asian and changing canon... why??

Daredevil:

Yeah, but fans are fickle. They'll watch it anyways if it's good. (Unless they're racist, in which case, eff them)

8 years 7 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

No DD - 'fans' aren't fickle. 'Fans' are very passionate!

 

People who just watch and enjoy are fickle.

 

In the case of Earthsea, the author intentionally made the main characters non-white! So said author was well and truly pissed!

 

Fans of LotR were quite unhappy about Arwen taking over Glorfindel's place... as well as the Kili/Tauriel 'romance' crap in Hobbit.

8 years 7 weeks ago
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Daredevil:

'Some' fans then. (Only a Sith deals in absolutes)

 

I just mean that sometimes fans can change their mind on something. I still remember when everyone freaked out over a blonde James Bond. Then they stopped complaining once they actually saw Casino Royale. 

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Interesting topic.

 

I am thoroughly in favour of more racial diversity in film. I think Idris Elba would have been a marvelous James Bond, for example, though that turned out to be an idle rumour. However - I am so god damn tired of the imitation version of this argument from Chinese people.

 

"Why does such-and-such a movie have no Chinese stars?"

 

This complaint is only superficially about ethnic diversity, and actually about wanting people to praise China. This topic has come up a lot recently, leading me to believe that Chinese people are being prompted to be vocal about it. It seems to be a modern addition to the long list of “poor China” (victim mentality) arguments that Chinese people are taught to recite (Rape of Nanjing, Colonial Humiliation, etc.).

 

Here’s what I have to say:

 

1. The argument uses the PRETENCE of being about racism, but is really about nationalism.

 

If Western movies started casting more Japanese or Korean actors, this would not in any way make Chinese people happy. Chinese people are simply insecure about Chinese people not being famous. The are told that their “culture” is so interesting to foreigners, while China produces nothing that any foreigner is interested in.

 

2. If China would like Chinese actors to be recognised, China should MAKE GOOD MOVIES.

 

Currently China exclusively makes embarrassing drivel that no one outside China wants to watch. Unfortunately Chinese culture teaches people to expect praise without going to the effort of deserving it. So instead of making anything worthy of recognition, they find foreign things that have achieved acclaim and complain that those things don’t contain Chinese people.

 

3. Chinese actors are just so god damn bad.

 

Any given male Chinese actor can do one of two things (but not both): One is a brooding facial expression. This is not acting - it's simply the easiest possible facial expression a man can do. In Chinese movies this is supposed to indicate that characters have "deep" emotional conflicts. The other is putting on a stupid voice and acting "gay". Chinese people find this hilarious. Stupid people being “gay” is the entire basis of Lost in Thailand. It’s painfully unfunny to anyone from a country with intellectual culture, but Chinese people genuinely love this shit.

 

Chinese actresses are chosen for their slim figures and white skin, because the casting process involves having sex with the director and other rich fat-asses. Pretty much all of them are vain, shallow, and have no personality.

 

Try watching Blackhat (directed by Michael Mann, who once was a formidable director). It is ruined by a Chinese actress. She can’t act. She says her lines, and I think her awkward pronunciation is supposed to distract viewers from the fact that she has no acting ability or character. A Chinese accent is not a substitute for personality. In Western movies Chinese actresses are completely wooden, and in Chinese movies they act like vain, shallow, sulky girls which they are.

 

4. China's movies have significantly less racial diversity than Hollywood’s.

 

China doesn't cast white actors (or, god forbid, black actors) in starring roles to even a fraction of the extent that Hollywood casts non-white people. If China would like there to be more ethnic diversity in movies, why doesn’t China make more ethnically diverse movies?

 

Unfortunately, the West is very sensitive to accusations of racism, however flimsy. China (and Islam, though it’s not related to this topic) has learnt to exploit Western cultural sensitivity for all it’s worth.

 

Now Hollywood makes frequent attempts (Iron Man 3, Looper, Gravity, etc, etc, etc.) to appease China by randomly flattering China in its movies. China’s response is to continue being “affronted” and become ever more demanding. Stop doing it, Hollywood. It’s embarrassing.

 

5. Regarding Hollywood’s whitewashing of movies:

 

I think Hollywood should take a more progressive stance than “we are justified in casting white actors because they are more bankable”. Hollywood is in a position to dictate what people want, and their fiscally cautious attitude towards non-white actors is lamentable. I think movies should cast interesting people with character (which sadly precludes mainland Chinese). I’m all for traditionally white characters being played by non-white people. I similarly don’t give a rats what race a kung fu practitioner is.

 

RiriRiri:

Don't you see a contradiction in

- "casting interesting people with character"

and

- taking a more progressive stance in casting non-white actors (rephrasing)?

 

Are you in favor or traditionally non-white characters being depicted by white people? Why/why not? Why aren't people shocked about the under presence of whites in basketball teams?

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Should Black Panther be white?..It is artifice...Black Panther was created specifically to appeal to the African American's culture...Changing the appearance comes off as something as superficial as "whiteface"...(I think changing Wolverine to a tall guy was a horrible choice because it castigated a whole portion of that characters psychological appeal..He was a short badass)...I think Marvel is perfectly capable of creating a superhero that would appeal directly to chinese audiences..The problem is it's values would be decidedly Anti-American and more akin to n. korea's..full of hatred for white people and desiring to enslave the blacks but of course congenial a proactive to those who supported china.....Even a white, American with a minimal understanding of chinese culture could write such a hero 9the masses aren't that hard to please)...What is important though is that creative characters and choices are not "offices"..they are individual, personal, subjective creations and should remain true to their creator's intentions..Its only when they become franchises do they begin to resemble "offices" of entitlements...Essentially at that stage you are politicizing those creations..and I find that is less than endearing...You are not teaching developing minds individual values only political ones.

You only accentuate appearances...

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Going back to what I was talking about earlier, and what Seansarto hinted at - If a Chinese mainland) actor or superhero is put into a starring role, the locals here still won't be entirely happy until said hero praises Mao & the CCP. You can bet your butt that if a Chinese hero makes a blockbuster, but doesn't fawn to the glory of the party, there will still be hell to pay!

 

As Samsasra said, it's not about ethnic diversity. And I'd even say it's not about Chinese ethnicity ("when will a mainlander get a starring role?"  is the ultimate question). If a Taiwanese actor, or HK actor, or Singaporean Chinese actor, etc etc etc gets a spot, still no happiness! If Lucy Liu wins something, will China be happy? NO! (I mean, just because her parents were born in Beijing & Shanghai....)

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Does anybody else find funny that the discussion about Chinese hero in Americans (or Western) movies is mainly among Westerners and Chinese apparently do not care much ...?

Stiggs:

Well there aren't that many Chinese people (or those who will admit to being Chinese) on this forum. I really don't think anyone else cares that much either to be honest, it's just that someone asked so they answered.

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