By continuing you agree to eChinacities's Privacy Policy .
Sign up with Google
Sign up with Facebook
Q: Should racist job adverts be allowed on expat/ESL sites?
I'm on a couple of such sites for my local city, and a job has come up with the requirement of 'caucasian'. It's not even a purely teaching job (perhaps they're intending to get the person to do some later...).
I've replied to both ads on those forums. One site (admin, of course) has replied with "It's not racist, it's business". Another site's admin is deflecting from the issue, building strawman arguments, and not dealing with it.
My stance is - if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Expat site should take a public stance against such attitudes, and admins have that responsibility.
Your thoughts???
It's not about skin color - it's all about the color of money.
You're, of course, free to start your own website where you can cater only to those applicants who are not Caucasian and refuse all/any ads that do not meet your personal standards...you know, if you're not part of the solution...
Traveler:
That's a ridiculous reply. Most people are not free to just go and start their own website, because of the time and costs involved, and the technical expertise required. That is why we come to established communities.
To try to exclude someone from an internet community because they make a suggestion for improvement is no better than the Chinese system of labelling people as dissidents.
Sinobear:
I was simply reiterating was the OP said - you can be part of the problem or you can change things. Last I heard, the Chinese constitution does not enshrine any rights for foreigners, regardless of skin color, creed, orientation or religion. What I do know is that a foreigner attempting to have a website or business in Chinese must abide by Chinese law and, of course, "respect Chinese culture." If their culture chooses to exclude others, then so be it. If you haven't gathered by now, I'm a realist and not prone to "white-knighting" on any forum. And I find it amusing how many posters go all out after anything that is not politically correct and yet can easily say to someone else...these are the rules, if you don't like it then you don't belong (cough, cough Traveler)
icnif77:
Tumbs up Sinobear! Loads of flip-floping and wishful thinking far away from reality.
We should teach Chinese first pedestrians have the right way. Native or Non-native English teachers, Caucasians or no, who cares!
In China, they all eat with two wooden sticks. What's up with that? When we'll change that?
'Fork&knife in every Chinese apartment'. I can't tolerate that chopsticks thingy anymore!
Sinobear:
Oh heck! I don't care how many thumbs down I get from hypocrites. Too many basement-dwelling liberals to battle! I suggest all those white males who believe in equality and are adamantly against the supposed Chinese racist policies to give up their jobs immediately and take up volunteer positions in Africa...dedicate your life to the improvement of the lives who really need your bleeding heart. Haha! I can hear the crickets chirping. Anyhoo, at least I am who and what I am here.
You're right, it definitely is perpetuating the problem. However, facilitating these racists does have the positive effect of informing would-be applicants to the nature of their employer. For those who are not Caucasian, they can better understand what to expect from this particular employer and Chinese employers in general. And for those who are Caucasian, it gives a hint as to whether you will be an educator or entertainer in your potential job. Overall, I think that removing the ads from expat sites would be masking the real problem of misperceptions in the Chinese parent consumer. I would rather a racist admit that fact upfront than silently deny every person of color without giving a valid reason. And you know that's what they would do if they were forced to remove/alter the ads.
it's really shameful for china...i can't count how many times i got rejected from jobs just because i'm not a white tall blonde dude, although i had all the qualifications they were asking for and sometimes i was even overqualified for the job
they dont use the word "Caucasian" anymore. they use NATIVE or WHITE in their adverts. The first one is hard to spell maybe.
Shining_brow:
Don't confuse 'native' with 'native speaker' - two VASTLY different things!
Though, I will agree with you about 'white' being used (sometimes).
harryjohn:
I wont mix them up Shiny. That's exactkly written in some adverts. Native speakers versus English native speaker is a different topic, right?
Requesting caucasins isn't the worst of it. I've seen ads that flat out say "No blacks or filipinos"
Traveler:
The intention is to exclude Africans who, apart from South Africans, are not on the approved list of countries that are native speakers. Nor is the Philippines.
They just do not realise that black people can be from a native speaking country. They think all black people come from a giant country called Africa.
nevermind:
I think the Philipines is on that list, I worked in English media here with numerous people from the Philipines.
Traveler:
I think as far as teaching goes, they want teachers from countries that the students will actually go to for study or work. USA, UK, Canada, Australia, NZ and SA all have a lot in common. Philippines has very little in common, and is not a place the students will want to go.
As far as media, Philippines is well known as a place where websites and magazines can get cheap original copy in readable English. They seem to be masters of rewriting a story.
MissA:
I've worked in teaching jobs with highly competent Filipinos and Filipinas. That job description makes me want to destroy things.
Well, at least we know not to apply when we see advertisements from employers who put a racial profile in their ads - that's the silver lining.
icnif77:
Second that, A!
You have choice to apply or no! Butt..., to change their adverts, 'I don't think so!'
Couldn't agree more, I would love to see echinacities and other esl sites take a stand against this, but I agree with others that when I see an ad that says 'no blacks' and "Caucasian females only" for example, I know right away to stay far away from those schools. They aren't hiring a teacher, they are hiring a white entertainer to make the parents happy. If the headmaster of the school doesn't have the balls to stand up to racist parents who might not want a well-qualified, loving and caring man or woman because their skin color is yellow, brown or black, then you know the school's true motive is to advertise your looks, not your skills to parents.
Silverstein:
When I read "white females only" I can know that the employer wants a real teacher, but when the ad says "white male teacher only" it means we want " an animal" to prey on. Few simple words will explain the job you want to apply to.
MissA:
No, silverstein, when employers want a 'white female' it has nothing to do with wanting a real teacher and everything to do with wanting somebody 'kid friendly' (cos all us girl types just looooove babies) and 'non threatening' (cos girls can't stand up for ourselves).
It is as shameful for Chinese as it is (was) shameful for white people in South Africa, USA, Canada. Ozzy Land not excluded!
Western people, we understand job adverts with 'Caucasian only' our own way and Chinese, they (don't) understand it their (our) way.
You must be aware racism is not sanctioned in China. There is nothing wrong with this advert from Chinese side. We can all write petitions about such adverts, butt.... we are all in China.
Let's do: 'walk a mile in their shoes.....:'
Take over Language School's hiring department:
1. School has 15 Chinese English teachers, and 1 Native (or Non-Native) English teacher;
2. School employs 5 'School pushers': 'They advertise classes over the phone to perspective students';
Head teacher said last week: 'I cannot get any 'extra' students for Class no. 7. (Each Class number usually has min. 3 or more classes, 15 students each). Class no. 7 is Native English teacher's class, Master degree, Black, 2-years experience in China.
School will change in a heart beat Black or Indian or Asian English teacher for somebody who's White with 'Valet parking' degree.
How will School's next job advert look like?
Racial adverts are wrong! From our, civilized side, butt.... not from Chinese side.
Can we change anything? I am 'convinced' we can! And 'Non-native English teachers in China' thingy, too!
All present English teachers in China should go for hunger strike!
I'm sure, Chinese people (students) will notice that!
300 million students will need at least 40 -50 years to notice our 'non-racist hiring' policy.
Don't be 'watery solution'!
:
"All present English teachers in China should go for hunger strike!"
maybe that will do...one day. After all, the English teachers in China are a sort powerful community, are they not?
icnif77:
I was satirical with 'hunger strike'! It wouldn't make a dent on their thinking.
Private student was telling me, another Chinese wanted to beat him, because he has Toshiba (Jap) laptop.
TIC all the way. We can talk all day and night what is wrong in China, butt...TIC!
We are and we will always be just guests here!
My reaction is never to apply to any racist ads. Believe me eventually schools will understand they are wrong. If we all did the same , it will work out at the end.
That's a very good question and thanks a lot for it.
Definitely they should not be allowed at all to do so. They should be banned from any expat/ESL websites including from echinacities.com . That should be a claim to seriously be considered by this website admin.
As Silverstein says, we should never apply to them. Though it looks like a sort of being true and honest with us, in discriminating upfront, this it has not do with Chinese people endeavor for honesty and truth. That's pure arrogance, violent arrogance and it should be prevented, as shining said, doing our own part.
"This is China!", it may be true, it may be not. But we also have to have our own reply, our own answers to that. If they stumble on this rock and don't get up and walk, we are not to do the same. All the contrary, we can show that not only we don't stumble on those idiotic words but we are able to keep walking. We are able to take further steps and in our Western way we can deny them any upfront denial to our dignity, reject any offense behind their empty and rude smiles and laughing at us.
As long as we end up to not doing anything,either little or more about some sensible issues like discrimination through the job adds, then we confirm that "this is China" indeed.
They have their own limits, intellectually, culturally, emotionally speaking. But we have our own too. Some of them we accept them and I am pretty sure many of us are ready to understand China and Chinese Culture issues unlike them who do mostly nothing to understand us.
Racism if it can be fought, then it should be fought. If we want to fight it, taking some steps ahead, then why not fight it?
Now then, if echinacities admin denies racist job adds on this website, it possibly may decrease the website income, it may lead to loss of money. I ignore how does this happen, whether the advertisers pay for this or not. Maybe it's just for free. Either way the Terms and Conditions of this website should strongly prevent such discriminations.
Traveler:
It is good to see you have ethics. However, not all people have the same ethics.
Many teachers do not have any qualifications or skills as teachers. Many are also from non-native speaking countries. These people apply for jobs, even though it is illegal.
They will take whatever jobs they can get, even applying to such unethical schools.
It is hard to imagine why anybody would work at these schools, because such racist schools are going to treat all non-Chinese people very badly.
censorship is never the answer
crimochina:
i made a very good post on a thread that will probably be deleted, so i'm gonna save it here
let me take a different tactic.
you are promoting that post because you as a non - native black person feel that you are the victim. chinese people use the word "na ge" even though it offends you (only you)
you are offended that employers in china discriminate against non natives english speakers and blacks.
but are you offended that you have your job because the locals or any asian looking person does not have the opportunity to apply for that job.
if you are offended by discrimination only when it affects you, that just means you are selfish.
it is the sovereign right of every nation to decide it's own laws.
it is the sovereign right of every nation to decide which laws they enforce.
china does not believe in human rights, they make that very clear. china discriminates against their own people. age, sex, ethnicity (sometimes even against han chinese), income level, hometown, etc.
so you think you are so special that you can come to china and have "human rights" applied to you. that's being delusional.
now, we can express our opinions but i would never tell anyone which jobs they should take/ not take.
you are supporting a post that says people should back up their belief in equality by not working and going to africa to give their talents away. because every white guy is independently wealthy.
I do not support all of china's policies (or usa's ) but that doesn't mean i should stop being responsible , in order to prove my beliefs to the world.
when making the decision to come to cina i did so with with the understanding that i will respect china's laws (except 1, but now i'm a good boy) that means no organized labor effort. by advocating that teachers bypass schools that discriminate in some sort of silent protest is playing with fire. we are in a fortunate situation here. we can leave our home countries and come to china and earn 2-4 times more than our chinese counterparts. we work fewer hours, get better accommodations and better treatment.
i laugh when teachers try to act as if they get these benefits because of their degrees and qualifications. no, it is because of your passport. don't believe me, ask yourself this. if a chinese national had your english ability, qualifications and degrees (from same schools as you) would that chinese national even be considered for the "foreign english teacher" position?
this is their toilet, all i can do is talk about it but i'm not responsible for cleaning it.
as i stated before, if you are overly sensitive and easily offended , china is not the place for you . i mean for your own good, china will drive you nuts>
harryjohn:
you got my respect in this one, crimo. totally understood it.
the website should be under the law that the office operates from , regardless of the opinions of others.
daveseslcafe should operate under us law
not sure about the locations of the others.
Sinobear for President
Tumbs up Sinobear! Loads of flip-floping and wishful thinking far away from reality.
We should teach Chinese first 'pedestrians have the right way' in the traffic. Native or Non-native English teachers, Caucasians or no, who cares!
In China, they all eat with two wooden sticks. What's up with that? When we'll change that?
'Fork&knife in every Chinese apartment'. I can't tolerate that 'chopsticks thingy' anymore!
sure this is kinda racist and is not allowed in the west, but lets look at it from a different view. in europe, advertisements are not even allowed to ask for a specific sex (male/female), but for sure the company might have preferences. so, if u have the wrong sex and you apply, u basically waste ur time as they wont even consider u. long story short, if they want a caucasian face, at least u dont have to waste ur time if u have a different skin color in the first place.
what else do u expect from this country? they will not be politically correct, especially not to foreigners. a white face teaching is only for the reputation of the school, not necessarily about the qualifications. yes i agree this is unfair, but many things are unfair in china. look at chinese job offers, many of them ask for shanghainese staff, isnt that the same?
ambivalentmace:
korea solves this problem by requiring a photo with the documents. they discriminate also ,but its subtle
In response to the above:
Firstly, I'm talking about EXPAT ESL sites... usually run and controlled by EXPATS. I'm suggesting THEY take a stance. In a way, it's no longer about TIC, but about how EXPATS choose to interact with China - no??
Secondly, I think the inherent racism in China is decreasing... a lot of people mention that parents want a white face in the classroom. From my (obviously limited) perspective, those parents (who are from younger generations) have been brought up with a more worldly view... more cosmopolitan. They have access to the internet for a few years now, and plenty of movies from OS (usually US), and so it's getting to be fairly common knowledge that language skill isn't directly related to *nationality, nor skin colour (nor gender, nor sexual preference, nor... etc etc).... (*how many US citizens have Spanish as their first language, and who's English sucks?? quick example, and easy to come up with others).
Also, the bigger the city, the less the racism (IMHO... feel free to disagree). I say this because, I find more non-caucasians teaching in my T2 city, and Shanghai, Beijing, etc, than can be found out in the sticks. (maybe I've just been lucky with that!) I also notice quite a few more non-native English speakers teaching (however, those teachers are pretty damn good with their language!!!) Sure, such cities can afford this (better teachers)... doesn't this say something?
Wasting time with applications?? Well, that's the next thing to do. IF teachers actually got together like a union, then maybe things could be changed... a central database that FT's go to for information... and that information would include those companies that have racist (and sexist) policies... so that other FT's looking for a job know not to apply there. We already have this general idea with blacklisting agents, and schools for bad conditions etc... why not this extra step???
Sinobear, Icniff , I hope you enjoy the little bubble you live in.... and keep on doing nothing 
Things (and people) change when given enough reason to change. China of 2013 is VASTLY different to China of 1993.. and will be fairly different from the China of 2023. I presume you have no interest in being a part of that change....
icnif77:
This is the first time you mention 'Foreign run advert' websites. That change matter of discussion completely!
I haven't replied to your question considering that fact.
I replied, because I understood question was about racial Chinese (School's or agents) adverts.
I am going back to my 'bubble': '300 million English language students in China by 2016'
Shining_brow:
??? The "Expat/ESL sites" in the subject didn't give that away?? Nor the "Expat sites should..."??? 
icnif77:
What is the point of your Q? No, 'Expat/ESL advert.....' doesn't specify 'Foreign owned advert'. Could it be 'advert for Expats', also?.
There are more than 300 adverts on Echinacities daily for FT, 3 of all adverts are 'own' by Foreigners / Expats?
Anyway, how do you know, which one is Chinese advert and which one is Vietnam expat advert?
Butt...., let me answer your question again: " I agree, Foreign/ Expat owned adverts should be strictly prohibited! "
I am just not sure, to whom we should dedicate policing? Space Police?
