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Q: Do you understand Yangism?
To me, it is the core of Chinese culture. It explains everything.
I wont post a link. Find it for yourself.
Is Yangism the core of China?
Yes. It's something I started to notice on my 2nd trip to China. I didn't know there was a word for it, but I knew it really bothered me, scared me even.
When I saw it mentioned here a while back I looked it up and it was a light bulb moment.
What I can't wrap my head around is how communism happened in the land of Yangism.
Shining_brow:
"What I can't wrap my head around is how communism happened in the land of Yangism."
It didn't. China's never been communist!
I have no real idea..... but the little I do know.... more and more, it seems to fit me.....I prefer myself to most of the world.... only thing is, I really do think more of my family than I do of myself. And I am sure you already know, I have no use for politicians, religious leaders or journalists.
The current POPE could be a changing moment... I am not religious, but he seems like a good guy.
happiness in life does not equate to large sums of money...
yes I do let me answer for you
Yangism is a planet not very far away from Mars,Its very much like our Earth.
Yes. It's something I started to notice on my 2nd trip to China. I didn't know there was a word for it, but I knew it really bothered me, scared me even.
When I saw it mentioned here a while back I looked it up and it was a light bulb moment.
What I can't wrap my head around is how communism happened in the land of Yangism.
Shining_brow:
"What I can't wrap my head around is how communism happened in the land of Yangism."
It didn't. China's never been communist!
I feel No & No to both Qs
ScotsAlan:
Interesting. Maybe I should post a link. Because researching the first question answers the second :-)
Here is the wiki link.
WhyHowWhen:
Thanks for the link. I did read it and few others too, but somehow don’t get it. Maybe its too ancient and culture has evolved!
IMHO, its based on Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism.. and with opening up add a dash of westernisation.
Some interesting links:
http://www.irespect.net/Untold%20Stories/Chinese/Chinese%20Values.htm
A classification on chinese culture. http://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/1277/5/Chinese%20culture.pdf
I think you are correct.
But the same thing you could say about more or less any other culture - just in Europe we would call it Machiavellism ...
All people around the world have the same desire - live happy life.
Just the word 'happy' has for different individuals different meaning.
Some people feel happy when they live in the decent house, have decent job and are not going to sleep hungry.
Problems starts with those who believe that they know everything better than the others and try to organize the other people lives. I understand that this makes them happy but unfortunately their happiness is a cause of many other people unhappiness ...
We see it so clearly now in EU with socialist government approach, but that is already different story ...
Samsara:
WTF are you even talking about? This is by-the-numbers gouxiong drivel.
Step 1: Say "It's the same in other countries."
Step 2: Make vague allusions to unrelated problems in other countries in the hope that people pick up on those instead of talking about the topic at hand.
So, let me clarify the topic at hand:
Chinese people don't have even basic levels of courtesy for people they don't know. They are unwilling to go to any personal effort to make society slightly more pleasant for other people. Thus the inconsiderate driving, littering, shouting, pushing, and public defecation.
And no, it's not the same in other countries.
jetfire9000:
Wrong in at least one way - Machiavellian thought is not smoothly comparable with Yangism, Confucianism, or most Chinese philosophies - because Machiavellian thought (So far as you are referring to "The Prince") was addressing political elite in how they should best rule a country - by faking moral ways of life to gain public support and esteem, but thinking strategically in ways to cement their rule. In other words, this was never addressed to the populace, just the political elite.
Much of Chinese philosophy, on the other hand, is comprehensive philosophical thought - applicable to everybody. Much of Chinese thought usually addresses rulers as well as those who are governed - Confucianism thus establishes norms / makes recommendations to the ruling class, but also the citizenry, Daoism also addresses both levels of society, and Yang-ism, although not as famous of a doctrine, does too. The populace of Italy, on the other hand, would be horrified if the teachings of Machiavelli were thrust upon them to guide their everyday life. So no, it is not really the same as you would have it.
Janosik:
@Jetfire9000
That was original meaning of Machiavellism - currently it's used to describe the behavior leading to own benefit irrespective of consequences for the others.
Yangism is not taught anywhere in the world because the only information we have about his philosophy is coming from his opponents - no Yang's scripts were found.
On top of that I did not understand Scot's message as discussion about philosophy but more trying to say that Chinese are selfish and do not care about the others.
Shining_brow:
@Janosik
Then you obviously missed the bit where Jet wrote " The populace of Italy, on the other hand, would be horrified if the teachings of Machiavelli were thrust upon them to guide their everyday life."
Chinese, OTOH, would be "woohoo - where can I get more?)
I go to an English Corner - organised, and a fairly small group. So, we have topics that we discuss. The last two weeks were about 'prejudice'. And, once again, when I say I'd trust a Japanese person over a Chinese person,, (Chinese) people actually agree with me when I talk about the culture of ripping people off, of lying, of making promises with absolutely no intention of following through on them... The number of Chinese who have actually warned me OFF going into business with a mainlander is very telling!
Janosik:
Yangism is not taught anywhere ...
There is not a single script surviving into modern times.
It more or less serves as synonym for 'selfish'.
Therefore the comment about teaching Machiavellism is simply wrong - Yangism is not taught in China.
Actually just opposite - people are taught to be nice and ready to offer sacrifice in favor of fellow citizens.
It's the outside world which makes them to see own benefit first.
But it's not reserved just for Chinese - I find behavior of many people across the culture favoring own benefit over the others.
Shining_brow:
J - are you deliberately trying to be ignorant? Or being paid for it?
Machiavelianism is a political theory, which gets taught as a political theory.
Yangism is a pattern of behaviour which Chinese have been taught by parents, relatives, society and government. They may not know the name, but they sure know how to live it!
Mainlanders like to tell themselves (and the rest of the world) many things about how they are... but saying is not the same as behaving!!! Children learn from actions, not words! And children become adults, who will only do what they learned as children ...
It's not surprising, really. I mean, a government which constantly distorts facts, expresses opinions obviously contrary to logic, and censors truth and real information, you grow up thinking one thing while doing the opposite.
xinyuren:
@ Janosik - I dont know what version of China you live in. Chinese are taught to be selfish. There is no other acceptable behaviour. From driving in the street, to waiting in queu. From the taking of exams to doing business, Chinese people learn by example the "acceptable" way to conduct themselves that will garner success. Anything to the contrary is just for show. I do see some improvement in tier 1 cities, but it took them 5000 years to get this far and they have a long way to go. The fact that you yourself (and lets be real, we all know you're Chinese) don't see anything wrong with selfishness, tells the real truth about what the Chinese are taught.
Janosik:
@xinyuren Osobne je pro me tezky psat 人 v tvem nicku ... Mozna, ze kdyby vsichni ti “native English speakers” se naucili trochu pokornejsimu pristupu, svet by byl o dost lepsi. You do not understand do you? May be it's just because majority of English native speakets are too lazy (or stupid ...) to learn (and understand!) other language/culture .... Actually you are the people we shall pitty ....
xinyuren:
Is this your best response, exposing me as not understanding this particular language? What bearing does this have on the topic? how did you further your argument? Answer: It has nothing to do with anything, like most of your comments.
Janosik:
@xinyu'ren'
One could derive out of it that you inability to speak anything else than English is actually your fault ...
Apparently you try to make it my fault ...
Fair enough - even I agree I should not use such weapons against you as you would stay no chance ....
Let's use English then, even though it's to my disadvantage ...
You may (or more probably may not) know the Yqngism is not existing philosophy ...
It just means that the people do not care about the other people's affairs and just do care about the own affairs ....
You follow so fa?
OK,then Yangist are saying the world should beg good because everyone is just minding own affairs
Clear enough?
Not sure clear enough for you ...
xinyuren:
@ Janosik - another useless post! Your point is.....? Please tell me you have a point.
Janosik:
@xinyu'ren'
Let me very blunt with you ...
I believed I described you as total idiot ...
Apparently you do not understand that way - sorry I cannot help you then - you may need a doctor ...
xinyuren:
ah, I see you have devolved to just calling people derogatives. A sure sign of having nothing of substance to say. But, I cant blame you much, the Chinese education system didnt prepare you for meaningful debate. Just for shouting out the party line.
Janosik:
@xinyu'ren‘
You cannot be that stupid, do you?
You are just pretending it to make it more amusing, do you?
Even though you Christian bigot I believe you cannot be that dumb ...
xinyuren:
....Yet you keep avoiding the meaningful points in this topic in favor of feeble attempts to insult me. Your work speaks for itself, I dont need to insult, by your own posts you insult yourself.
The overwhelming impression is that Chinese people are cunts. Or Yangists, if you prefer.
But what stops me from condemning all of them are the gems you come across.
They're few and far between but if you find one/some you'll reap the reward. And shake your head at the rest of the undeveloped masses.
I don't see much of a problem with Yang-ism. It seems it could be re-imagined along the lines of "You only live once" "Live life to the fullest" "Love yourself before others" "Do what you gotta' do" "Do what floats your boat" - These all are modern types of egoistic statements that pop up every now and then. Everybody will have their own definition of what good living is, and Yangism seems to recommend that you should do what you want. Whatever label you attach to it - egoistic, individualist, perhaps selfish - it only becomes a problem when it is followed in some kind of immoral fashion - Do what benefits me even if it hurts you, ignore responsibility for my actions which caused others harm, etc. The people that behave like this seem to lack empathy, or a way to feel for others.
Janosik:
I would agree with the first half of your answer - and even broaden it to historical civilizations where it was more visible.
Coming then to your statement about immorality ...
Who will decide what is ethical and moral?
Some smart and powerful ruler?
Or the group of oldests?
Humankind tried that in the history many times in different forms and it usually did not end up well.
Therefore long time ago we invented legal system - nowadays we have law and people are required to behave as per the law.
Everyone is then encouraged to find his/her own style of life within the legal limit of given country.
Are some people selfish, yes for sure they are. But what's the problem with it?
Shining_brow:
As you said, nothing overly wrong with living life to the full.
But, when that comes to helping someone else who is in distress (or, even something as simple as politeness), then Yangism is proven a false ideology. The basic tenet of looking out for #1 is ok - when one remembers that the best way to do that is to have a society where it is possible to improve. And that requires at least an outward showing of ultruism. After all, it's in your best interests to help others, knowing that when the time comes, you can rely on them to help you. Yangism ignores this point (and so, basically, ignores the long-term consequences of it's ideology).
In western philosophy, we have Ethical Egoism, and Philosophical Egoism. One says we should only do what's in our own best interests. The other says we only can do such (ie, it's not possible not to... because we can see 'best interest' in so many different - and long-term - ways!) I'm a Philosophical Egoist. Even with both of these ideologies, helping others and being respectful can still be seen as benefiting the individual. Yangism doesn't...
jetfire9000:
@Janoisk
Any functional empire, state, or nation within history has in most cases established codes of acceptable behavior ( laws) to be followed within their domains. As for where morals come from, the answers may be unique depending on where and when you look. I don't think it matters too much who the source of the prevailing views are, so long as people follow and believe in them. A few Chinese will point out the very short length of the Qin dynasty to suggest that something other than legalistic codification is necessary. In many cases it is true that some type of legitimacy is needed to strengthen the power behind laws, something other than law itself. yangism need not exist in a moral vaccuum.
Janosik:
@Jetfire
Exactly - in your last message where is 'ethic' ....
This is what I meant - act within the legal scale - and maximize the benefit for yourself within these limits ..
jetfire9000:
@ Janoisk
I"m not sure I understand your first sentence, care to make it more clear?
By the way, do you think morals and ethics are separate from law? From your posts so far I am getting the impression yes.
Of course... 'Yangism' [杨朱学派] explains China all at once and with one word: ME!!!
It was an early alternative to Mohist and Confucian thought.
It's very similar to Randism/Objectivism once you cut away all the bullshit that goes with that. Ayn Rand should have been Chinese. It's also got a lot in common with Laveyan Satanism. All these things are just fancy ways of saying that I don't wanna share my toys with the other kids.
Shining_brow:
I've got that book sitting on top of my TV... still haven't even bothered with the first page.
nzteacher80:
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged(Ayn Rand). One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
ScotsAlan:
Trump was in the news today. He wants Muslims to spy. To turn people in.
All excellent answers.
The problem I have with Yangism, is that I think most people have some sort of compassion within them. And that this compassion has to be suppressed by social demands. That is: losing face.
We all believe in different things. Wow, we can have political battles on here that seem to be heading towards fisticuffs at times But I bet there is not a single poster on here who would not open his/her door to help another poster in need.
I don't mean that we all have some inherent goodness in us because of religious stuff. The goodness within us comes from plain old common sense.
Easiest example: let people out of the elevator before you try to get in.
The ethics of Yangism would suggest waiting is the easiest option. Less energy extended. But Chinese just barge in.
Where has the common sense gone?
xinyuren:
I would suggest that the Chinese practice an immature, undeveloped form of yangism. Is it not the government's implicit desire to keep the common people immature and uninformed? After all, they already had driven off or killed their most educated and cultured citizens. So the expected outcome, considering the way they are educated, would be a childish selfishness with no consideration of the big picture. They dont think too much. Such big thinking is left for their leaders. There are signs of this throughout society and if you learn enough Chinese to understand their conversations, it leaves little doubt in my mind that they are just children programmed to react and not think.
ScotsAlan:
Yup. I get your point about programming to a simple complicit docile state, and I agree with it.
But the Government are trying to promote society now. Social awareness and all that sort of stuff.
I am not sure if this Yangism is a party thing. I think it is cultural. I am really starting to rethink my thoughts on the cultural revolution. If Yangism and superstition is so bad now, I hate to think what it was like 40 years ago.
xinyuren:
Nor do I think that the state is actively promoting Yangism. But any movement is limited by the mindset of its followers, and in this case the followers happen to be Chinese sheep. Whatever they do will be undeveloped and immature due to the nature of their education. Before the country can hope to turn around and react to the new government stimulus, the government needs to make big changes in the way they educate its people. But I think they are afraid of this option.
ScotsAlan:
I sort of agree. Education is the key.
But education takes time. Child to adult and all that.
The problem, as I see it, is not the Government, but the Grandparents. And the parents, to an extent.
But the grandparents are definately Yangists. And the problem of modern day China is that it is the Grandparents who are bringing up the new generation. And the new mums this week, are still under that same superticious (spelling) spell that the grandmas lived under
There is no common sense in this country. And its not all the Partys fault.
I am trying to figure out why there is no common sense.
xinyuren:
Define common sense! I'm serious. Back in the days of the CR (the grandparent's days) when the government was rewarding them for spying on their neighbors, teachers, and parents and punishing them for doing the contrary, what made common sense in China then? When you could get turned in by a jealous friend or rival for such a trivial thing as owning an unapproved article of clothing or item, what constituted common sense among that paranoia? Like you said, it takes generations to remove those marks and these events happened within some of our lifetimes. You can't expect the grandparents to teach their children principles they never knew or valued. They will pass down what worked for them. In America, it was "common sense" for slaves to hate their white slave owners. Now, many generations later, that thinking is still ingrained in some people. Common sense is largely a matter of perspective.
