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Posts: 280

Shifu

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Q: Does it bother Caucasians morally to work at a job that you know doesn't hire non-Caucasians?

As many of us are English teachers in China, I'm sure the majority if not all have had to deal with the "send a photo" part of applying for a job. Many recruiters have blatantly told me this is to screen the race of the applicant, as if I couldn't figure that out myself. I know the overwhelming majority of the schools don't want to hire black people or people that "look Asian," as they like to say, but they have no problem hiring non-native speakers with terrible accents. No offense if that's you. I'm just wondering for any of you who are Caucasian and work at a school that you know wouldn't hire other races, does that bother you at all???

12 years 30 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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It bothers me. I think that it's wrong to hire someone based on their skin color. So many Chinese people don't understand that you can be non-Caucasian and still be British or American or Australian.

From my experience, it's mainly private language schools that hire "white faces", even if they have terrible English. It's ridiculous.

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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
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It bothers me. I think that it's wrong to hire someone based on their skin color. So many Chinese people don't understand that you can be non-Caucasian and still be British or American or Australian.

From my experience, it's mainly private language schools that hire "white faces", even if they have terrible English. It's ridiculous.

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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
Posts: 960

Shifu

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I dont work as an English teacher but I am beween two trains of thought to the question of "Does it bother me" In a purely teaching perspective it bothers me a lot, because the only considerations should be if a person has the ability to teach the subject and if they have the correct pronounciation need for the oral component.
The other side of the argument is that they have to attract students and it is very obvious to everyone that the market want western looking teachers, so it is not really the school to blame here but the consumer.
Apply the same question to say a flight attendant. Does how they look and their height have anything to do with how they perform their job?. Of course not, so why do theyhave to meet age, height and appearance criteria. Same reason , public perception and consumer expectation. Not saying it's right it's just how it is. And it's not only in China thatthis applies.

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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
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I wouldn't consider working at a school like that.

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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
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Of course being so shallow as to choose someone for only their appearance is horrible.

But like everything else in China, they only care about how it looks at a distance. Look at any building, any company, any display for that matter. The Chinese mentality is to make it look great from far away or from a quick glance. The closer you look the more you see the horrible quality they accepted for even their show pieces. The same applies to their foreign monkeys. If they are going to pay extra for a laowai, then stuff like qualifications and horrible accent don't compare to how import the company will look to the customers.

So you can be pissed off at a company for being racist, but it's the mentality of their customers that have to be changed first. The mind of an average person needs to understand that appearance does not decide a person's worth. Until then, bitching about a school is just about as useful as pissing in the wind.

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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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I'm not a "Teacher" but an: "English Language Facilitator" and here's my take on the biz and discrimination:
No, it doesn't really bother me as where I come from they have Affirmative action policies and being white or "Caucasian" I feel that was a form of reverse discrimination. Having said that I never had a grudge against any "minority" races or women over the policy, but I didn't care for the Government having said policy in the first place, but if i was a "minority" I would have also took advantage of the program I'm sure, so that's life, that's the way the cookie crumbles... Having dealt with that most my life (I lost 3 opportunities for Federal jobs being that I was to white and a male) I don't loose sleep over it here, it's their company policies, I guess here I'm the "minority", I'll take the job this time, thanx! Having said all that... EVERY company I've worked for here in China my colleagues have included , Blacks, East Indians, Middle Eastern and Asian people who were native speakers so I've yet to work anywhere that discriminates based on Race. Stick with the big companies if you are worried about that (EF-Smart,WEB, Wall street, NDI)

paullwall:

That actually really opened my eyes, I like hearing different angles of a topic.

12 years 27 weeks ago
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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Nope.

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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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It's sad for the kids really. Some teachers I've come across really have awful accents and/or terrible English (British and Americans included). I completely understand that it's because of the parents. I just want to know what it's like in the brains of these parents. Like what are your ultimate goals for your children? To know a white person? Puzzled

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12 years 30 weeks ago

Before you judge someone walk a mile in their shoes, that way you're a mile away and you have their shoes!

 
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Shifu

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I wish they would interview their "Attitude" above all else!! Wink

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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
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as a black guy i dont think it should bother anyone, this is china, it is not "civilized society" we all benefit from discrimination in china. i still can find a job anywhere in china for the same pay as a white guy. some schools also hire only black teachers because we all can" sing and dance and play basketball" (except me , i must be white on the inside Puzzled )if you come here expecting enlightenment or think you will educate the chinese on how to treat and think of everyone as equals you will be sadly disappointed because you will learn that chinese wont put faith in anything thing you say (regardless of your skin color) because only chinese (han) are real people.

Njord:

HEY! I can dance... You're so hurtful!!

12 years 30 weeks ago
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woody:

And I can play basketball.

12 years 30 weeks ago
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cub:

@crimochina, liked your reply! Its amazing how offended everyone gets and so easily so quick over little things like this! I mean, all humans have flaws are imperfect We are all unique different as individuals And to think we can live in a fairy tale utopian world of perfection with flawed human beings is laughable!

8 years 35 weeks ago
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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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It doesn't bother me in the least. I honestly couldn't care less whether ethnic minorities get a job or not as an English teacher. All the schools I have worked for don't hire non-native speakers for the reason Woody explained, being the consumers fault through ignorance. Having said that, they do hire blacks and Indians but only as a last resort. There is a shortage of native speakers in China and the number of schools grow every year (easy money). I personally find that they hire people who are not Caucasian when they cant find a native speaker. They try to pay them less and take advantage of them. Most of them jump at the chance to brown nose their Chinese boss and resent the native speakers they work with.

The cruel exception being those native English speakers who are ethnic minorities.

MissA:

Equating 'white' with 'native speaker' is entirely stupid. All the main native-speaker countries have a caucasian majority, but by no means is skin colour a prerequisite for being a native speaker. The worst teacher I've ever worked with was Quebecois and he 'looked right' but had the worst accent. The best I've worked with was a Korean-American woman who copped loads of crap for her Asian face.

12 years 8 weeks ago
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12 years 30 weeks ago

Tired of dirt and lies.

 
Posts: 280

Shifu

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I'm not whining nor am I complaining about it. I make part of those "native English speakers who are ethnic minorities" that the last poster mentioned and I speak better English and am more educated than the majority of Caucasians here (and Chinese for that matter). In the U.S. I would be hired over most people here for this same job so I'm not hurt about the discrimination. In fact, I'm only here to improve my Chinese (my third language) after four years of study in America and I teach just as a means of income. My question was merely out of curiosity. I have no desire whatsoever to reform anyone or anything in this country, including gold-digging Chinese women who want iPads, marriage and children (I think she should get all of the above btw Smile.)

Njord:

Well looky here we have Mr.Fancy pants... It's mighty good of you to slum with us retards Mr.Fancy pants, if I only was half as edumacated as you I would be some proud, I sure would!!

12 years 30 weeks ago
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lchickman:

Good one!

12 years 30 weeks ago
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crimochina:

see that's where you have it wrong "good english" is not native english. if you meet a girl named swallow and an american starts to snicker , do you know why? do you know why a young lady should not say "please/ pleasure me" do u you know what is meant by "struckout", "1st base" "2nd base" or why you shouldn't name your good product "salty balls"

12 years 30 weeks ago
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lchickman:

1st base ? 2nd base ? Struckout ? How old are you , 40 ? Wth says those things anymore ? Come on man , yeah I know what all of those things mean because we learned them in my history class .

12 years 29 weeks ago
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12 years 30 weeks ago

Before you judge someone walk a mile in their shoes, that way you're a mile away and you have their shoes!

 
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I once turned down a job where they had a pretty white French girl teaching English at one of the lower levels. Its difficult enough to train away the Chinglish, I wasnt gonna even try to train away French-Chinglish.

Hiring a white face doesn't bother me terribly. Its just when a school will go so far as to hire a white non native speaker over a non white native speaker that I have a hard time.

I once told a (black) friend of mine that I could get him a job in my town (Lianyungagn, Jiangsu province) only to later be told that there was no way he could get a job there. Ive been so embarrassed about it I haven't been able to talk to him since.

My boss at the time even fed us a line that there was a new Jiangsu province law baring all black people from entering the province! That I had a hard time with.

A local school in my last town decided to throw a fit, fire and then slander 4 white teachers rather than risk employing one half black teacher (it was a confusing circle of bullshit). That really messed with my head.

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12 years 30 weeks ago

Live passionately, even if it kills you, because something is going to kill you anyway."rn-- Webb Chiles

 
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I once had a job offer from a private school. He was so enthusiastic about my coming to Ningbo, even calling me twice. Once he got a look at my QQ photo, I never heard from him again. He simply ignored my messages when I tried to chat with him on QQ, even when it was clear he was online. Good thing I am not in the job market here. I would be frustrated beyond words.

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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
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it does not bother me...

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12 years 30 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Hi chickman, no it doesn't bother me at all. There is lots of racism,prejudice,disrespect,intolerance,arrogance and STUPIDITY directed at Caucasians on a daily basis in one form or another by Chinese..and I would add South Koreans,Japanese,etc. I speak from much personal experience regarding these things. (Like many others.)

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11 years 26 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Bothered me big time. I told my boss how disgusted I was with their hiring policy and refused to act as a contact for all potential foreign teachers.

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11 years 26 weeks ago
 
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I don't think we have that policy in our college.  I'm from Russia & I hope I was hired for my good English but not for my blond hair. It's so stupid to reject people with good English who do not have the "right" skin color. I heard that Chinese Americans are often turned down by schools here just because "parents want a real foreigner". 

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11 years 15 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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No. In fact, I never feel any kind of white guilt over anything. I'm not responsible for what other people do, especially for things that were done before my birth. And in this instance, I don't feel that agreeing to work for an employer that refuses to hire foreign teachers that aren't white means that I approve of the policy, even tacitly. All it means is that I've agreed to take their money to teach their students.

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11 years 15 weeks ago
 
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Racism bothers me

I have in my desk drawer an employment contract from an american company that states they will keep on record, personal information, such as racial grouping, and further down it says that any personal information will be shared with the companies partners if requested. This is for a job located in Europe

mattsm84:

Of course you do. They ask everybody their race at some point or another. It doesn't matter where your job is posted, so long as its an American company, its probably company policy. Its because there is actually a lot of racial quota filling that goes on in the US. Companies that have a certain percentage of employees that are from specific racial groups, like African Americans, Native Americans (Indians) or Hispanics, qualify for specific tax breaks and are afforded an advantage when they apply for government contracts. Having a written record of exactly how many employees are minorities is an important part of that.

 

That said, this is something that American Millennials are likely to get rid of as they become a larger percentage of the electorate. This sort of racial quota filling doesn't really do what its intended to do. Its supposed to help minorities climb out out poverty, and it just ends up helping middle class minorities get jobs or get into college. They'll probably end up chucking a lot of it, but not all of it, in favor of quotas based around income.

11 years 15 weeks ago
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Scandinavian:

I see. Back home any bias on gender, race or age is not allowed. It may be idealistic, but it should always be about a persons qualifications rather than anything else. 

11 years 15 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

No offense, but how is this sort of thing something that your homeland would ever have to deal with? I mean the country your from probably doesn't run the risk of having a permanent underclass composed of ethnic or racial minorities (assuming your from a Nordic country.) To attempt to keep that kind of thing from happening, we try to elevate racial and ethnic minorities into the middle class. We often make it easier for them to get jobs by providing companies incentives to hire these people and for promoting these people into management. We mandate that government offices meet certain diversity quotas. Where possible we do what we can to try to make level an inherently uneven system. For instance, members or certain minority groups that live in low income areas are less likely to go to quality schools, as funding is tied to property value. As a result, students from these schools often don't do as well on college entrance exams. To off-set that many universities set the bar lower for minority applicants. It's not a perfect system, and it'll probably need to be reworked in the next couple of years, but if we don't really do anything about it then we put ourselves back on the path to having major problems with civil rights once again.

11 years 15 weeks ago
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11 years 15 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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no offense taken but you are clearly wrong with your assumtions and when you assume

you make an ass out of u me  where iam at we have hispanics blacks whites africans

mattsm84:

Are you the Scandinavian? If so, I'm sorry I assumed you were from Scandinavia, since that's your name and you mentioned applying a job with an American company in Europe. Maybe if you told me where you are from, and explain a little more about immigration and the existing minorities in your country then maybe we could have a conversation about this.

11 years 14 weeks ago
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11 years 14 weeks ago
 
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Yes, it bothers me. No, I won't work for them (or get out, if I have already signed and sealed).

 

i came here to teach. I spent a lot of money to learn to teach well. If the school doesn't want non-caucasians, then it also means they want a 'singing, dancing white monkey' - and not a teacher.

 

If you know English (well - including globally understood accenting), and can teach, you ought to have the job. END.OF.STORY!

 

Yeah, there's this apparent attitude in China that only white people can speak good English - but it's an attitude that needs to change!

 

(and, just for good measure, I'll be starting my Doctoral research soon, and it'll be precisely on this topic - no doubt proving once and for all that skin colour changes Chinese students' attitudes towards teachers).

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11 years 14 weeks ago
 
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I've never worked in such a place, or at least I've never worked in a place that openly admitted to such a policy. I've worked in two LTCs and neither of them have employed anyone except Chinese and Caucasians, but then again in two years in Nanning I cannot recall seeing anyone who did not appear Chinese or Caucasian, so I am not in a position to judge. I do know my first school only recruited 'pretty' receptionists / marketing girls as the DOS turned back one of  my recommendations at a recruiting fair (I was there to check the level of English).

 

If I was at a place that openly admitted such a racist policy I certainly would not renew my contract, and I would be looking for new employment ASAP and then leave.

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11 years 14 weeks ago
 
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I though I'd answered this before.

 

Yes, yes it bothered me intensely. I was once asked to interview a potential foreign (US) hire, and they were concerned he wasn't a 'real' native speaker. The basis for their concern was that he was somewhat tanned-ish, (and as Yank as they come).

 

On the other hand, my school were desperate to hire a "Canadian" who had turned up. The problem with the guy is that (along with seeming quite mentally unstable) he had very evidently never been anywhere near Canada in his life and couldn't string a sentence together. Even the Chinese staff with very good English could not recognize the difference between native and non-native.

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11 years 14 weeks ago
 
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I am not white (Pakistani by ethnicity), I've sent my photo to many employers and received a response from vast majority of them. But is there racism in China? Damn right!

 

Racism is common place in China, every race is affected, including their own.

ScotsAlan:

White priviledge is a universal shame all white people need to understand and accept.

 

The white people that refuse to accept this are the problem..

8 years 35 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

It's not racism when you, as an non-native English speaker, have such a soft T pronunciation, that people can't distinguish between Tree and Three when you speak. When I left my old school, they hired 2 Pakistanis with accents. Chinese staff could hear the bad pronunciation. They decided to keep them anyway, and pass them off as an American and an Australian. Is it racism when random foreigners with sub-par English are hired by schools for their foreign appearance, deceiving and miseducating their students? China is rife with unfair judgements, lies and deceptions. Racism is an overused buzzword compared to the serious stuff that goes on in Chinese schools.

8 years 35 weeks ago
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SaifMalik:

coin you're talking about nationality there, not race

8 years 35 weeks ago
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silverbutton1:

White priviledge is a universal shame all white people need to understand and accept.

 

The white people that refuse to accept this are the problem.  -scotsalan

 

What a load of garbage. You are entitled to your opinion, but I actually see you as the problem. So...back at ya. 

8 years 35 weeks ago
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8 years 35 weeks ago
 
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@scotsalan, Excuse me white priviledge? 5 or even 3 years ago we all NEVER had heard this race baiting PC word! The only priviledge the white have is in politics as in congress the elite wealthy or the kkk ok? Am i to be forced to be ''ashamed'' if i was white now? Why should a white person [a color]] should be ashamed of slavery of blacks over hundreds of years ago? That is history and no white person now is responsible for this! If slavery is so bad and evil then why are the muslims in some countries right now still dealing in selling slaves? BTW many blacks in africa also were selling thier own black race to the slave traders to the US!

DrMonkey:

You can understand what "white privilege" is, that does not make you guilty of it. It's not a personal accusation, it's just mentioning that the simple fact of being white gives you some advantages. In Asia, white privilege is a problem with the locals, not with the random white dude coming for a job.

8 years 35 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

"White privilege", as a socio-political concept, has been around for over 50 years. I first heard it more than 20 years ago.

 

Which mushroom have you been hiding under??? (oh yeah... sorry, I forgot)

8 years 35 weeks ago
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Spiderboenz:

The idea of White Privilege was first suggested by W.E.B. Du Bois in 1935, but the term itself was not used until 1965.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

http://www.buzzfeed.com/michaelblackmon/17-harrowing-examples-of-white-privilege-9hu9#.cbnVaY5xL

http://thisiswhiteprivilege.tumblr.com/

http://blog.sina.cn/dpool/blog/s/blog_4bee98b8010007hr.html

 

 

8 years 35 weeks ago
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cub:

spider go ahead look high and low spend hours to show the info as proof, so what ok? a year ago in ferguson mo. is the only time the media as usual started the white privelage mantra now this pc word is a weapon a tool to 'shame'' white people! Well thats a lot of ''white guilt'' to spread around ok? ''White people'' aka ''caucasions' includes All of europe and thats a lot of people!

8 years 35 weeks ago
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Spiderboenz:

hours?  Took less than 3 seconds.

Where do you get your news, White Privilege was in the media LONG before Ferguson.

8 years 35 weeks ago
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cub:

oh thats right spider it was called 'white power'' in the 60s or 70s yeah but its been overated also Do explain what is 'white'' privilege' means and your description will vary greatly from person to person! And its a excuse now used to blame have no personal responsibility for ones actions blaming everyone else

8 years 35 weeks ago
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A: Add-it: Getting into the recruiters ... You could also research a
A:Add-it: Getting into the recruiters ... You could also research any school/job offering posted by the recruiters ... as an example:"First job offering this AM was posted by the recruiter 'ClickChina' for the English teacher position at International School in Jinhua city, Zhejiang Province, China...https://jobs.echinacities.com/jobchapter/1355025095  Jinhua No.1 High School, Zhejiang website has a 'Contact Us' option ...https://www.jinhuaschool-ctc.org ... next, prepare your CV and email it away ..." Good luck! -- icnif77
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