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Q: With friends like these
The US has NATO, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan as allies. Almost all are democracies, as well as some of the most wealthy, cultured, and popular nations in the world. Countries who have issues with the US hegemony are such pillars of light as North Korea, Iran, and Sudan
-The PRC has North Korea, Pakistan, the Burmese Juanta and Cambodia as allies. Countries who export drugs, torture or have tortured millions of people, and continually annoy the world with antics. Pakistan let Bin Laden live there....not a great PR move from Foreign Policy angles...
-Even Russia has fought shooting engagements with the PRC...As has India, Vietnam, and South Korea (Korean War)
-Every noble prize winning Chinese scientist has ended up living where?
--Now please REFUTE of these claims. Don't mention CIA, Snowden, Hitler, Space Aliens, or Edward Said, please limit yourself to disproving one of my claims above...
Thank you...
-The PRC has North Korea, Pakistan, the Burmese Juanta and Cambodia as allies. Countries who export drugs, torture or have tortured millions of people, and continually annoy the world with antics
Torture, drones shooting stuffs with questionable rights & ethics, giving lesson about freedom yet clamping freedom at home, large wealth disparity & corporatism, continually annoying the world with antics. I put USA in that category too. As much as back in the 40's they did The Right Thing, they lost their mojo after that. Even for the drug, US fits in : some South America's contra-revolutionary movement were funded with drug business. War On Drug arguably made more harm than good 
I would pick Norway, Sweden, Canada as a model, or Australia to some extent, not US
DrMonkey:
The linked picture (VPN mandatory, sorry) summarize my point
http://nemoant464.wikispaces.com/Visual+Media+on+the+War+on+Drugs
On US's credits, doing this kind of critic, even very actively is completely ok and won't send you in jail for "troubling the public harmony". So let's not be confused, I don't put US in the same bag as PRC, I just don't put it in the 'Good' bag.
DrMonkey:
Let's agree to disagree ^^ It just proves that PRC is a place where things can not be said, while it's ok elsewhere. Yup, PRC is not a drop-in replacement for US, but then, I never heard that being said seriously. Looking at the censorship and completely ignoring the rest , I don't think you will convince somebody not convinced yet with this argument. If you really want to convince and influence, you would have better chance picking an other country than US. US have a far too large exposed surface to blames.
KimOnach:
The Right Thing ? Seriously ?
They never, ever did The Right Thing. They did Whatever The Fuck They Could Take Advantage Of. Don't be naive.
But if I get to chose, I'll pay at least some respect to the intelligence of the evil masterplanner at work there. Now, if we go to China and the like...
DrMonkey:
@KimOnAch Well, back in the 40's, US armies freed my country, while a large part of the population was just looking, and the "elite" just gave up. They did not do that alone, it was a large concerted effort, of which USSR did the brunt of the job. However, US gave generous helps to clean-up the mess and rebuild. Unlike USSR, countries who accepted the help did not have to become a US-bis. This help made the post-war Europe. They also stopped Japan's militaristic folly (pretty much all by themselves that time, Chinese were too busy being smart and fighting each other) and helped to rebuild it, *at the same time as they did so for Europe*. Compared to what the other actors involved did, I call that "The Right Thing".
KimOnach:
Well, I suggest you take a good good look at what the "US generosity" actually cost for freeing and rebuilding your country. France didn't become the pet of the US because at that time it could still count on leaders that had charisma and dignity - looking at De Gaulle.
Things have changed since.
Remember history is always written by the winners. Remember France has laws making sure everyone trying to question the Truth ends up in court. So much for freedom.
DrMonkey:
@Shining_brown If it's for last word of my original answer, it's 'US' as in 'USA'
A challenge to refute, while you state that some of the most obvious counterarguments are off limits....OK. And somewhere in China, a nationalist propaganda writer makes an article with almost the exact tone and content attacking USA and glorifying China....
""--Now please REFUTE any of these claims. Don't mention Tibet, Tiananmen, Taiwan, the Dalai Lama, Corruption in the party, or China’s ridiculous territorial claims; please limit yourself to disproving one of my claims above...
Thank you...""
and that's how it's done. For further details, consult CCP propaganda manual, or an American Christian periodical newspaper.
I'm sorry did you see a drone shooting people in Paris? Tokyo? Or Seoul?
Or people in failed states who embrace Islamic terrorism?
DrMonkey:
Errr, for one guy shot down by drone, how much were just poor chums a bit too close from the explosion ? Who choose who to shoot ?
Islamism thrives on misery and desperation, since the early 80's. Rather than addressing the root cause, drones shooting is just helping Islamists. More misery to thrives on, and it even validates the "US is evil, there's your enemy and the cause of your problems" mantra. Islamists creates school, provides social help and relief, and give a "simple" explanation to all things. Yes, it's shitty schools, yes, people get enslaved by completely irrational, backward ideologies. But don't ask a countryside chum to make the difference. And every indiscriminate use of force reinforce this vicious circle.
Meanwhile, it gives a fantastic argument to reject anything associated to US and by extension, the Western World. You can't be champion of liberty and justice when you create such a mess and can't even acknowledge the failure.
thefidu881:
Well! the islamic terrorism is very popular nowadays. I am just thinking if they are islamic terrorists why are they killing the nationals of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Muslim dominated Afghanistan, Muslim majority of Iraq? Lets not talk over Iraq and Afghanistan for they are war zones but Pakistan is not at war but a strong ally of US in War on terror(As per US and NATO). Who killed 65000 of my civilian countrymen? Who killed about 9000 Pakistan Army personnel? If they are Islamic terrorists why would they kill muslims then? I didn't mean they should kill non-muslims instead of muslims but I am searching the terrorists for I don't think so Christian terrorists would kill Christians, do you think so? If no, then how could you generilize terrorist over muslims? Any sound argument?
Regarding Islamists I agree with Dr that they are conservative and illiterate sometimes culprits using the religion as a shield. They should be liberated from their misery not by drones but education.
MissA:
"I don't think so Christian terrorists would kill Christians, do you think so"... are you acquainted at all with the Troubles in Northern Ireland?
Shining_brow:
I know this is going back a bit in history, but please do recall that at one stage, the Muslims were the most cultured, literate, and scientific people on the planet!
The problem with Islam, along with most other religions, is particular sects. Unfortunately, at the moment, the more nastier Muslim sect gets the most air-time in the media.
Wait a moment. There's definitely a pedestal in the room. But nobody's standing on it. Nobody can even claim a higher ground. Everybody is just using different tactics to accomplish the same agenda. Which one is the best? The people judge. The countries where people run to and don't run away from are the ones that do the best jobs of staying tyranny. Still, warding off tyranny is not the same as creating harmony.
First of all if you posted this to counter my post of generalization then you have proven me right for you took the wrong Highway. Let me tell you how? I didn't restrict anyone from saying anything as the subject line of my post says; AN OPEN DEBATE. That means anyone can come up with any idea irrespective of lingual bearers. Even the 'GREEN MAN' went far off the track I didn't mind because he has the liberty to express what he thinks.
You came up with strange and absurd philosophy that you have to talk over Bin Laden( lunatic demon) but you will refute to talk about CIA. As someone earlier stated its far beyond understanding and to me its like talk of death without life. CIA and Bin Laden are interconnected dear so let us the liberty to talk freely then might be I could answer you.
Secondly, talking of democracies you shouldn't forget that no democracy is flawless or is perfect so its not a valid argument. Saudi Arabia Dubai and UAE are the best friends of US providing her Oil and Bucks in case of recession but they are ruled by 'Dictators'. Also beheading is continued in Saudi and Bin Laden was a Saudi National. Even Bin Laden group of companies is one of the largest market share holder in Middle East.
I don't have the liberty and time to talk of more such cases so my simple request for you is to read more and come up with some constructive and acceptable arguments. And don't consider me as Pro China and Anti US/West as I do not advocate the wars and suppressions of masses in any shape.
So the point of this story is that the USA and China must in some way have sex with each other? So that the resulting offspring will be.. what? Sorry, I got lost, what were we talking about?
icnif77:
See 'Rmb replacing US$ soon' tread for 'real porn', but US isn't included!
Interesting story about 'hookers' in USA:
If the New York Stock Exchange is a “High-Frequency Brothel” then the SEC is its Pimp
Trubman went on to compare the two best known stock exchanges in the U.S. to houses of ill repute, writing: “What is clearly unfair and unethical — and, frankly, ought to be outlawed — is how the exchanges have essentially taken on the role of running a high-priced, high-frequency brothel…”
While it’s true that the New York Post might possibly overuse sexual analogies (on August 10, 2011 it ran a front page cover comparing the Dow Jones Industrial Average to a “hooker’s drawers”), in this instance Trugman is spot on.
For the entire past week, newspapers and television have blasted the news around the globe that U.S. stock markets are rigged. By writing in the New York Times Magazine, appearing on 60 Minutes, Meet the Press, CNBC, Bloomberg TV, and giving out dozens of newspaper interviews, Michael Lewis has done what the SEC and Congress have failed miserably in achieving. He has reached critical mass in delivering a public mandate for change. It’s now time for serious, comprehensive Congressional hearings to begin. Hiding from the truth will not restore trust in our markets.
OP: bleat, bleat,..'Who wants to be in China?' SEC = Security Exchange Commission…butT….all proper English here!
Vallyntin:
I'm far too poor to put much thought into purchasing stocks and paying hooker. That being said, it could put forth that any service type industry is collection of pimps and whores. Here in China I am 100% sure I am a whore. Does it feel good? Of course. Except 拉肚子, that never feels good.
icnif77:
I never feel the same. Once somebody asked me in Fl, 'how come you don't have GF? Are you gay?'
Me: 'My ass is 'one way' only!'
I can never feel like whore, when walking on Earth. It's 'wolf' confidence!
In Stock Market, you don't need to be rich! You must be consistent! Loads of 'due diligence', before you commit your dough. Can't be too greedy, either.
I'm out of 'active' in US Ex some 10Y, but I love to read charts with forward predictions.
Posted article is very funny! It's 'news', however all small traders know, something is fishy on US Exchange for long time. 'Laduzi'? You watch, what you're eating! o2
Ras: This website is full of trolls and Chinese paid commentators, don't let it get to you. I learned to just ignore them. If anyone is stupid enough to believe their made up stories (I am a former soldier for western countries and we raped 7 year olds while they cradled their dead mother) then that is their problem.
With friends like this, La Laaa La la la la ala..... I am just earning some points and looking for a ' friend like this' 
That story about being a US soldier witnessing other soldiers raping a 7 year old is made up. And he used that made up story to attack "western countries" really? What does that have to do with France? (Typical Chinese thinking, make sth up about the US and use it to critic all western// foreign countries)
No one is saying China is the only country with problems.
1. china's problems are unique to china
2. china is doing nothing to address their problems
Lets look at the daily life in china.
watch how people get on the bus. rushing in, rushing out, all together at the very same time. same for the elevators.
lets look at how people drive, it actually matches. people going into the wrong lane in order to get around traffic but instead blocking traffic.
lets look at the schools and parenting. children are taught to hate and be racist. they are constantly taught about the bad things other countries did to china but are never taught about the good things other countries did for china.
they lie and claim credit for the accomplishments of other people (soccer)
parents and teachers laugh and encourage their young children when they say something like "kill all japanese"
I'm not talking about a silly tv show, i'm talking about everyday life.
if you dare stand against those ignorant sentiments, you are a traitor.
lets look at forced abortions that do happen daily. If you make public what has happen to you, you are a traitor and are shunned by your local community.
these are all problems but china does not see them as problems. when you force people to behave in an animalistic manner that behavior will manifest itself in unexpected areas.
Yes the extremes can be used to judge a nation, if those extremes are manifestations of an underlying problem. (example: 30 people shot in a blah usa=we got a gun problem) mutilating children does happen more often in china than people know, but it is not often reported and it is not often boys and it is not often cutting off something. It is often done with hot water or fire in ways that others would not know. (look at the beggars on the street)
Now let me address the muslim girls having to wear viels issue. it is actually not a question of religious freedom. it is a question of human rights. people should be free to follow whatever religion they want and they should be able to practice that religion anyway they want, right?
in many muslim religions women must wear veils or else they will be punished (stoning, beating, even rape and death). so should the government allow that? the argument against veils has to do with protecting women.
Basically here is my point . in other countries, they look at themselves in the mirror. They argue about what are problems and what aren’t problems. They argue about how to fix these problems. In china, they dispatch wumaos to say other countries are worse, there is no problem, and attack those that bring up the topic. That is the only thing china does to address their problems.
My friend told me that she came across a Chinese that claimed to have lived in france for 10 years. She said that in western countries, lesbians are locked up and beaten. Another told her that Chinese are not allowed to become citizens in the us (Chinese married to Americans). Read this, it claims Chinese live better lives in china than in the us. It is in Chinese echincites please translate this and make an article out of it. It is hilarious. China is a bigger version of north korea.
crimochina:
http://www.dooland.com/magazine/article_185652.html This is the story. Please translate and publish
thefidu881:
You are beating the drums in a wrong direction for you need to put your comment on that thread.
You didn't get a chance to see; 'The main theme of the debate is generalization of individual acts over masse' where I just assumed to generalize things over countries in results of personal or individual acts of fools. Then came the 'green man' with his nutfuckery and sowed his real character. I am in no means generalizing that all western countries or the US sucks because of some dumb asses.
Regarding muslim women and veil, no one force them observe veil as my family has no women observing veil but we didn't stone them, torture them, WATHER BOARTH them so you are just an emperor of f***s generalizing shit events over billions as your user name shows.
Scandinavian:
I read this and other posts to my dog, He is offended by the comparison that Chinese behave animalistic. E.g. he doesn't crap on the street, he will always go to a bush or patch of open dirt.
He does struggle with not dropping food next to his plate, but he will pick it up afterwards. He takes no offense in being told no if he is about to do something that would have a negative effect on others. He only barks when asked to. When walking on busy sidewalks he will step behind me to give space to oncoming people. (default is to walk on the left side of his master) He treats he Chinese "mummy" equally to his white "daddy", he doesn't go through the trash outside.
Oh, Good post Crimo
Shining_brow:
One minor point... there seems to be this belief that the Muslim veil (hijab to burqa) is either forced upon all women on threat of being stoned, etc... and that non-muslim nations want to do away with it to give women their freedoms.
There are actually some very devout Muslim women, living in non-Muslim countries (and NOT under the threat of stoning, beating, etc etc), who choose to continue to wear it. It's a sign of their devotion... just as much as a Christian nun's habit, a Buddhist monk's shaved head, a Taoist monk's top-knot, and my long hair! :)
The argument against such coverings in France etc is 2-fold. One of those reasons is legal... the ability to commit crimes without being identified!
thefidu881:
@Shining: That's the point I made clear to crimo. Even my family is in PK and the girls do not wear it but are safe as no one threaten them to do so. Unluckily when literate people come up with generilizations then things move to worst from bad. I was a bit naive at crimo for he even doesn't know there are no muslim religions but sects how come he generlize the individual acts and events over billions around the world. Furthermore, Ban on veil is looked with great anger in muslim soceities and it can result in bad moves against minorities in muslim countries which is not a good sign for religious tolerance.
Shining_brow:
@thefidu... your last point wasn't helping your cause much! I get that banning something of a religious nature won't go down very well, but to then pick on those minorities doesn't help any!!! It's not the expats on the streets (or even the local natives from different backgrounds - even if they're of the same culture, nation or even religion as the country banning religious paraphernalia) that's the problem, it's the governments back home.
Attacking the minorities only makes matters worse, and the smart, educated, literate, etc should know that!
I remember when 9/11 (the American version) happened, there was looking to be a lot of backlash towards Muslims in Australia. Fortunately, there were also a lot of calls by politicians and public figures NOT to take it out on our new Australians, and so there might have been some bad words, and angry looks, but relatively little violence :)
thefidu881:
@ yeah! You are right but what I said is from what I have seen in those societies. As I always been pointing out that educating them could be more useful and cheaper then exterminating them. Unluckily after 9/11 we can see a huge imbalance in religious tolerance specially in Muslim world as they are on the receiving end for doing nothing. Despite some really nasty acts like slaying people, bomb blasts and kidnappings, majority of them are still keeping the morality intact.
As as per my observations education could result in a far better solution to the problem.
Shining_brow:
Education is ALWAYS the best answer :)
(however, what's being taught is always an issue!! Just look at Chinese education... and the arguments about Japanese revision of history... and all that sort of stuff!)
I think you are just looking for people to agree with you and say the things you want to hear... so why should any of us bother?
A proper debate is not restrictive to any counter arguments as even one counter arguments in specific debates could totally nullify the argument.
Coin already illustrated how absurd it would be to argue against you.
I'm confused... what's the "claim" we're refuting?? I just see some blanket statements (semi-facts about the world)
la lala la laaaaa, with friends like this....hit song of the year
Here is what I think about China and their relationship with "Rogue" states.
I know I will be flamed for this, but here goes. I will base this on North Korea.
Western Government's don't like the North Korean Government. And vice versa of course.
So the west impose trade sanctions on that country. And because of that, the people in general suffer more. Yes of course there is food aid etc, but that is normally delivered with conditions in place. You know the sort of thing? NK needs grain so they fire a missile, the west says " Hey, you can't do that !!!". NK says " Give us free food and we won't do it again". It's a never ending cycle of rhetoric, that can only ever really be stopped by people picking up guns and shooting each other.
China does it a different way. They are friends, they do trade together, and China sells them things the country need. They have a common historical bond of being the underdogs facing up to western gunboat diplomacy.
In my view, it is possible that China is doing it's bit to look out for the people on the street in NK. They are helping with technology, diplomacy and , dare I say it, respect for their cause. They are holding out their hand in friendship, as a big brother.
I see that as a better option than sending in the drones to deliver their death sentences without trial.
And wow, I did not even mention Guantanamo in that answer.
Right, I'm off to put my fireproof suit on 
DrMonkey:
Nah, it makes sense. In the specific case of NK, there's an other reason for China to let it survive. If NK crumbles, it's about 20 millions refugees to deal with.
That second lot aren't so much 'allies' as having a common 'enemy'. If the US (in particular) wasn't so demanding of them, and kept on insulting them (ie, not letting them just do what they want), then they'd completely ignore each other (other than China/Nth Korea).
It's merely the "we little guys have to stick together" idea.
Countries that see China as a partner or an enemy
http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/64/survey/15/
(click the tiny links saying Partner, Enemy, Neither above the chart
