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Q: Should the word 'No*g" be banned from ECC?
I vote yes. I feel it is very offensive. How do you vote?
EDIT TO ADD.
This question has nothing to do with ECC. Just a genuine interest what people think of the word.
And so it begins.
Banning words, FFS, what is wrong with you? What's next? Should we ban thinking someone is a dick? Ban opinions other than those held by a wannabe bully-boy (moderator). Report rule breakers to A-Puss, the authorities?
Break out the brown shirts boys, a new era has arrived!
ScotsAlan:
I worded the question wrong. This has nothing to do with ECC. Just a personal interest.
I was reading the stuff in the western press last night about "is it racist to wear dreadlocks". I thought that debate was a lot on nonsense. How can a hairstyle be racist?. But then I wondered about what people think about the "n#ong" word.
I'm undecided on this one. It is used In a derogatory way on expat sites to describe uneducated & uncultured Chinese people. Actually it depends how you define uneducated. My MIL is uneducated in that she only went to school for 1.5 years and can't even speak Mandarin. Is she a Nong? No, not in the way it is used on expat sites as she has manners and is polite. Yes, in that she is technically a Nong Min (farmer).
So id say it's used for uncultured people, a bit like "Bogan" & "Trailer Trash" is used to describe uncultured Australians & Americans.
Should it be banned? Not fully. For me it would depend on the context in which it was used.
Shining_brow:
You say that 'nong' is for uneducated AND uncultured. Your wife is not uncultured. Therefore, technically, not a 'nong'.
Hotwater:
Read my 2nd paragraph. Plus I was referring to my MIL. My wife is both cultured and educated (though stupidly married me!)
Shining_brow:
I did... sorry, I mixed up your wife with your MIL (gas chamber for me?? :p)
I was only trying to point out that 'nong' isn't merely uneducated, which was what you were saying in your first paragraph.
It does lead to a question though... many here have received education with Chinese characteristics.. does that count as a 'nong' if their education includes vast ignorance? (eg - cold water will kill you)
expatlife26:
God I just think people are focused so much more on offensive language than on positive results.
Calling someone a nong might be offensive but not calling them a nong doesn't do anything for them either.
I'm basically a progressive liberal, but I think things have gone way too far in terms of failing to address bad behavior in other out of guilt.
Shitty behavior should be shamed. I'm sure a slur isn't the best way to do it, but remember the nong's behavior hurts them in terms of social opportunity and locked in class inferiority WAY more than it mildly annoys me when a dipshit on the subway says something dumb. He's still going to his workman's dormitory (if he's lucky) and i'm still going to my comfortable hi-rise apartment.
We the privileged aren't doing anybody any favors by setting low expectations and making excuses for certain people based on their background is every bit as demeaning as calling them a slur. God...did I just quote George W.? Never thought i'd see the day.
I vote no.
If we did that then people would just start saying farmer (which is where the word comes from) instead. Or bumpkin, hillbilly, peasant...
The word itself is irrelevant, if people want to insult someone there's always a creative way to do it.
Anyway, it really does describe a type of person well. I think the fact that it's seen as an insult is because it conjures up the image of a rude, unwashed, spitting on the floor and crapping in the street peasant. It's not a pleasant image, but then some people are exactly that. May as well have a name for it.
ScotsAlan:
As I understand it Stiggs, it is a word commonly used by Chinese themselves as a derogatory term against their fellow compatriots.
So yes, I agree with what you say.
The word still makes me feel uneasy though. But I have to admit, I use the word "Yangist" often. That's probably just as bad.
Stiggs:
You say yangist because that's what some people are. You could describe their behavior instead but it's much more convenient to just use one word. The end meaning is the same.
Shining_brow:
'Yangist' has a slightly different meaning though. That's the one of pure selfishness. 'Nong' is the uncultured piss on the streets. Yangists may be educated and relatively cultured, but are completely self-absorbed.
A nong can be educated and acculturated... a Yangist is a personality defect that will be much harder to improve.
I dont think so.
It all depends on the way its used and the 'intent' behind it.
It reflects more on the person who uses it.. not the receiver. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet 
"As I understand it Stiggs, it is a word commonly used by Chinese themselves as a derogatory term against their fellow compatriots."
So if the word originated as a Chinese derogatory term, then why does it become racist when someone else uses it? If I call you a redneck, would that be racist?
Me personally, I won't use it on the forum because I don't like the term. I like to use terms that are general. But my feelings does not make a word racist. Grow up Scots
ScotsAlan:
"Redneck" would not be racist. I know people who call themselves "proud rednecks". But if a stranger used the term in a derogatory manner towards them he would soon know about it.
This question is nothing to do with ECC by the way. I am genuinely interested in what people think of the word "n*ng".
Englteachted:
Same fucking thing, created by the culture and some would wear it proudly if someone else uses it to insult them it's not racist.
You either ban all words or ban none. Equality is only present in either one of those cases. You have the right to be offended, just as you have the right to offend others. Whether you choose to do so is your choice. If you find it otherwise, we might as well make a list of all offensive behaviors and ban them. It would result in an irreconcilable mess.
Shining_brow:
Mostly agree, except for when it comes to purely offensive 'rude' words... do you want to allow 'fk wit'? Or "the 'C' word" on public display? While I don't think we should all be 'G' rated, I also don't think it should be a necessity for everyone to 'grow a thick skin'. Some respect should be given, and lines drawn.
And so it begins.
Banning words, FFS, what is wrong with you? What's next? Should we ban thinking someone is a dick? Ban opinions other than those held by a wannabe bully-boy (moderator). Report rule breakers to A-Puss, the authorities?
Break out the brown shirts boys, a new era has arrived!
ScotsAlan:
I worded the question wrong. This has nothing to do with ECC. Just a personal interest.
I was reading the stuff in the western press last night about "is it racist to wear dreadlocks". I thought that debate was a lot on nonsense. How can a hairstyle be racist?. But then I wondered about what people think about the "n#ong" word.
I have added an edit to my question to clarify that this question has nothing to do with ECC. Just a genuine interest in the word. I did not word my question very well I won't change the wording of my question because that would put some of the answers out of context 
iWolf:
lol......nice backtrack fail..."it has nothing to do with ecc". The title of this bollocks says Should this word be banned from ecc? Let me rewrite stupid on my forehead.
ScotsAlan:
Yup. I worded the question in a stupid way. Not a backtrack. A clarification :-)
Englteachted:
No Shining that would be dishonest.
Scpts is who he is, when you express a dumb idea take the ridicule that comes with it. We aren't Chinese, we don't become cowards when dealing with the results of our words.
Shining_brow:
I disagree. I don't think it would be 'dishonest' - it's what we do when we want to get to the heart of what we really want to say. Sometimes it takes revising.
I also think that asking about 'nong' is fair as either ECC or RL.
After all, the same has been said for 'laowai', etc.
If the ECC stays on this, then perhaps start a new thread about it in RL??
ScotsAlan:
If I reworded the question some answers here would be out of context. That would not be fair on the people who reply.
Only a filthy nong or a barefoot gone native would want the word banned.
Englteachted:
Chinese like you can't grasp the idea that people can disagree without behaving like cavemen.
whocaresreally:
johnathon kent version of the movie "man of steel", nice movie, did not know it played in china.
folks like me will just make up a new word....like Chook as an example. Language does evolve, or devolve... depending.
silverbutton1:
haha. i didnt know the word existed. here i was thinking i was making a new word by combining chinese with gook. oh well.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chook
Shining_brow:
'Nong' has been a part of my dialect (Aussie) for decades... probably imported from the Chinese immigrants in the 1800's.
so was the phrase fw offensive or infering Matty was in charge
philbravery:
hahaha 2 messages from admin .about the same post so does that mean both were offensive? lol here is one for you to translate DILLIGAF
Hotwater:
Just noticed your original comment had been harmonised. From what I remember of it this morning it was both a personal attack and contained profanity (though I've got away with using F***wit in the past but it was never aimed at another member of this website).
I'm surprised it lasted this long. You were quoting T&C's only recently and personal attacks definitely don't comply with the T&C's.
philbravery:
but there is no t and c now . also its funny how many thumbs up it got
No, words should not be banned.
People who lie about their identity or have multiple accounts should be banned.
ScotsAlan:
With you on the no banning of words. As I said above, badly worded question. However there are plenty of words in the wider world that could get people into trouble. The non PC words.
Since when did grownups give a flying fuck about words? And in a forum full of cynical bastards with a wealth of worldly experience between them. Fuck profanity!!!
philbravery:
only those who cant put up so they delete they should rename ecc after its new mod . after all he makes the rules up to suite himself
Hotwater:
I'd actually agree that most of us couldn't give a damn about words used here as we're mainly grown-ups. Far as I'm concerned Phil added his first comment to bait the mods, ScotsAlan in particular.
Phil was quite happy quoting T&C's recently and he knows the one about no personal attacks on posters. He got what he wanted...his post harmonised and an excuse to make a sarky comment about moderation again. Really don't know what his problem is. He was having digs about the new user moderation from the start and at ScotsAlan persoanlly since he made himself public as a mod, which I thought was the wrong thing to do.
Hotwater:
Didn't see your comment Phil when I posted mine. You were baiting mods with that first comment. You've now had your chance to have another dig.
philbravery:
so when your mate and co changed the rules that they wanted welcome to scotts ecc
philbravery:
bye the way if your mate had followed the original t&c instead of playing his new god powers we would not be here now
Hotwater:
What rule changes? TBH I've not got involved with my mates modding as I'm not interested but I have seen the improvement in double post and spam deletions.
Apart from you I'm not aware of any other posts being harmonised and I only know of yours before today as you've made a point to highlight it. Though thinking back there was one other and that deserved to be deleted.
iWolf:
I've been fortunate enough to get some harmonisamationisming for relatively innocuous comments (by my sometimes harsh standards) But the whole basis and mindset of this OP is a terribly slippery slope that once begun upon can't be stopped or turned back. Here comes the hong wei bing, the nazi party and the new puritanicals rolled into one inevitably self-serving and self-destructive ball that a dung beetle would love to lay eggs in. Mr Hotwater, we have both seen where this leads on another site. Sure it is all good intentions, butterflies and bunny rabbits in the beginning........mark my words.
philbravery:
yes his janitor skills are second to non however according to the rules about jobs posts you can go do your own research on the t&c that were posted by me a couple of times
Hotwater:
@ Iwolf. Point taken especially in regards to that other site with the tumbleweed blowing through
@ Phil. I've remembered now what riled you up over the modding. That researchers topic. I didn't agree with your viewpoint then. I saw it as research, not spam. Plus some of your comments on that topic were out of order. Not surprised you we're harmonised on that one.
ScotsAlan:
My politics are left wing. As a result my contributions to moderation goes towards the "Benefit of the doubt" side. I see posts directed at me that are offensive. I don't remove them. Grumpy cat does then he reprimands me for not removing them. The Nazis were not left wing by the way. I really struggle to understand how the right wing manage to justify a connection between Hitler and the left wing. He was their sworn enemy. He invaded Russia in operation Barbarossa. He tried to do a deal with the UK to fight Russia together. So yup. I suspect a right wing mod would remove more than me. A left wing mod fights for freedom of speech. Yeah yeah... I want to ban a word. A derogatory word. Not in an official capacity as an ECC USER mod. I asked a general question, that's all. You assumed I was a left wing Nazi. What is a left wing Nazi?
iWolf:
What is wrong with your comprehension ability. You appear to only see one word in a paragraph to the exclusion of all else. If you look immediately before the comma preceding that single word you got a hard-on about, you may (or may not) notice the name of a group from the other side of the field. I'm nothing if not an equal opportunity sledger.Stop taking those stupid pills. Please.
philbravery:
so iwolf ...i dont think you post 3 times by accident i reckon its your way of trying to get the message to stick on the way through between his ears lol
Banning words has never done much to actually help people.
I've never used the word nong, but whether you use the word or not doesn't change the reality for the people it is describing.
The behavior of the people they call nongs is most hurtful to themselves. By acting obnoxious and oblivious they exclude themselves from jobs and opportunity.
That doesn't mean it's right to use as a slur for all local people, but it's naive and incorrect to act like there isn't a huge segment of the population here that doesn't know how to behave in polite society. If we pretend that isn't the case they'll just continue to reinforce themselves and grow into a permanent underclass.
This whole idea that you can't criticize or call out any bad behavior because of your own privilege is ludicrous. It reinforces class divides more than it will ever bring them down.
No matter where you're from, 50% of the people when given valid criticism take it as a personal attack, and 50% can learn from it. Guess who gets out of the shitty situation?
I couldn't care less. I've never used the word and have only began to hear it recently.
That is, here in China. I'm reminded now that my Mum used to call someone a 'nong' if they did something a bit silly, like...let me think..... like putting a bowl down on the wrong bias, for example.
Yes, in that instance she might say "oh, ya nong". But only towards a teammate, not an opponent. And the intent wouldn't be to offend.
I use other terminology to describe the rude and inconsiderate and bullying and filthy behaviour so prevelent in Chinese people/society. Fukn idiot/cunt... or arsehole are quite typical. Also the phrase "dumb as dogshit".
I don't use this terminology to describe people who aren't worthy of it.
There should not be any 'banned' words.
once you start it is a slippery slope to harmonisation where no-one can express opinions.
by leaving posters comments intact - insults and all - everyone can see what kind of individual they are.
we are not in the 'brave new world' of PC assholery yet.
By smoothing over words or cleaning up what people post, you are playing 'mother' - and we don't need that here.
Let people be themselves online as words are revealing.
if someone wants to dig a hole, just let them dig.
I have been called worse things on this site and i have let them alone because anything negative written reflects on the writer, especially those posters who resort to name-calling and not a reasoned logical argument or point of view, not the subject.
Shining_brow:
I disagree.
While it's basically true for the veteran users on here, when someone new comes on and sees some of the crap that's been written and allowed to stand, they're not going to be thinking "Oh, that's a really bad forum member" - they're going to be thinking "OMG - this sort of crap is what goes on here... why are they allowed to post? Why don't they do something about it. I don't want to be a part of it". Some new users have actually said as much... WhowhatHow actually said this in another thread!
Islam is having a shocking time at the moment because the vast majority aren't being seen as doing enough to counter the extremists.
Same with the refugees in Europe. The problems are caused by a very tiny minority - and yet we get ignorant people wanting to punish the whole lot.
Leaving the bad crap paints ECC with the same brush that we paint with those individual users.
ScotsAlan:
Now I am torn. I agree with both. But I would go 5.5 to sorrel and 4.5 to you Shining. But now. After a pause to think... I swing to agree with Shining. That's the great thing about debate. Then again... Wow. Difficult. Some words, used to insult gay people for example, have been claimed by the very group they were used to insult. It takes the sting out of the word. Same with the other N word. Indeed, many derogatory words have been claimed by the people they were supposed to insult. Interesting question I think. That's why I asked it.
paulmartin:
Shining idiot
Should we ban the word 'WHITE'.It offends me,what is the difference.If you feel, or believe you are inferior for any reason,race, colour or religion.I believe it's your own personal problem,not believing in yourself is your own choice.
ScotsAlan:
That's not what shining is saying PaulMartin. I think what he is saying that a minority of a specific group, using a derogatory term to describe another group can be seen as painting everyone with the same brush.
sorrel:
@shining
fair point.
But if that was the case i would not have been posting as long as i have.
some new posters have joined guns blazing, some have risen to being baited by asking obviously provocative questions to elicit extreme responses.
Like you said, the forum is being judged by a minority of comments, and this forum is mild in comparison to many out there.
by and large I find regular posters ok, recognizing that an otherwise reasonable/helpful poster could be having a bad day.
There are others who almost look to be offended immediately when they join, and then there are the ones who respond with nothing but insults.
People are regularly called out and it says much for a site where regular posters will take an offender to task for continuous shite.
I would rather see a thread where an asshole/idiot is seen to be dealt with than chunks missing.
Spams should be dealt with and where there is a grey area a few pertinent questions will reveal the intent of the OP, as happened recently when a recruiter tried to ask people here what they wanted to see in a job posting - someone who was too lazy to do their job.
There have been a number of flaky questions that were so vague that did not stand up to courteous probing for more information, and the OP getting offended when asked to clarify a point or caught out in a changing story.
proper help can often not be given without all the facts.
Personally, resorting to insults shows a weakness of the writer, and the response (if any) would best be served by not resorting to the same.
however, there are occasions when calling a spade a spade is what is needed.
if someone repeatedly denigrates and makes offensive sexist remarks about women (usually for no reason), i have no hesitation about calling them a misogynistic asshole, and will point out why that is the case.
Leaving such a thread will serve to show what the person is like.
a couple of years ago there was a poster who made the most vile and unwarranted comments about wives of other posters and the entire thread was removed and the poster banned.
I would have left it there because the response of the subjects was actually not so much tolerant, but quite amused at the outburst.
There can not be any blanket ban or harmonisation, only a nuanced response to each post.
there is enough censorship around without more being introduced.
ScotsAlan:
Well put sorrel. The swing is back with you :-) But are words not like a virus. These days we are all familiar with things going viral. Smallpox is gone now. Polio almost: only 6 cases last year. If groups of people use a derogatory word to spread a message of hate, why not innoculate that word to stop the spread of hate?
ScotsAlan:
@PaulMartin. You gave a perfect example of what many people have said in this thread. "Jock" could be considered derogatory. When people call me a "Jock", it totally depends upon the context in what it is said if I consider it an insult or not.
paulmartin:
So Alan
Why ban NONG,,maybe they believe in themselves.Nothing wrong with farmers they feed us,it should be a word of respect.Every word can take on a personal feeling,it just needs context.Sorrel is right,don't you think.
paulmartin:
Alan
If you can't debate,don't block access to this site.You are not God.I've used this forum for 6 or or 7 years now.If you block user's because your nappies wet,we the people of ECC don't want you or need you killing discussions.
iWolf:
@ shining
Islam is having a shocking time at the moment because the vast majority aren't being seen as doing enough to counter the extremists.
Same with the refugees in Europe. The problems are caused by a very tiny minority - and yet we get ignorant people wanting to punish the whole lot.
Are you seriously comparing a bit of shit slinging with radicalisation of muslims and the european refugee crisis? These are false anaologies and you are not giving enough credit to the intelligence of the current or your imagined new users.
How can you know what someone thinks about anything? Better go all puritanical and lock down some victorian values just in case.
As the usual voice of logic and moderate reason (Ms Sorrel) pointed out this is a slippery slope on which you are intent on embarking.
Some people will be offended regardless of what is written. That is their right. Some see certain posts as a bit of banter or taking the piss. Others don't even care. This is what makes the rich tapestry of the world. Forcing people into certain behaviours seldom has a positive effect on anything. Usually the opposite.
Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.
Shining_brow:
@iWolf - I'm using extreme examples to help try to punctuate a point. The general principle is the same, though quite obviously the magnitude is vastly different. So, no, I do not consider the examples I used as 'equal' to the shitslinging. But, backyard football is still the same basic thing as the World Cup.
@Sorrel - in principle, I totally agree with you. I would love a world like that. (I'd love a world where people - including myself - didn't end up 'resorting' to insults and personal attacks). I'd love for people to see things without the filter of ego and "I'm always right".
BUT... I don't expect everyone out there to be like that. And, I don't need them to be. And, therefore, I don't see a need for it to become necessary to join in this forum.
This leads me to a question: Which has a more detrimental affect on communication (basically, this forum's ongoing existence with new and members)? A forum where anyone can say anything? (except spam) Using any language, and whatever expletives they want... or the forum where you can post any ideas, but such attacks and profanity are removed? (unfortunately, here that means the whole post - not just the offending sections).
I think, the forum should cater to the larger number and be more inclusive. I don't think parents should be thinking "I don't want my young child looking at ECC because they might pick up some bad words and use them in school... "Miss Ames, what's a F*@#wit?"
And... that's where Scot's and AdminCat have a tough time.... And iWolf said similar - the line between profanity, vulgarity, etc. And yes, everyone can be offended... however, I think we're all cluey enough to know that some words are more likely to offend than others... (although, this topic says not all).
I've said this before - I (and a couple of others on here, ironically enough) come from a country where we have clear(-ish) racial vilification laws. There are some things which if said can get you arrested. I'm actually fine with that. Swearing in public can merit a fine (and yet, we're some of the worst swearers in the world! :p)
So, to make my point again... I think it's better for the forum for users to moderate their own language - or have it deleted, than to require users to have a thick skin.. AND for them to read through the crap to see the good stuff.
@iWolf again... people use this 'slippery slope' fallacy a lot. It doesn't actually work! If you make heroine illegal, then you need to ban cigarettes and alcohol.. and coffee. No. Not true! "You're an idiot" is not the same as "you're a Fkwit @rsh0l#" (damn, so much easier to just write those words :p) We know some words are more extreme than others. (Unless you have Asperger's Syndrome). To suggest that banning one will lead to banning the other is just ridiculous.
Besides which - Scots isn't King of all Posts. If he makes a bad call, then the's got people who will call him out on it - IF they do it in a manner that is worth being read. Scots responds to debate - not insults. (and, he's still answerable to Grumpy).
@PaulMartin - your argument was actually a good one. Too bad you had to start off with an (unwarranted) insult.
To respond to your actual thought... no. This is still ECC. It's a site for expats to vent. I don't want it to be a necessity for everyone to have a thick skin, but I also don't think everyone needs to cater to the very thin-skinned. There is a place in the middle. It's not a simple black and white... haters gonna hate, Offendees gonna be offended.
To be honest,I've been in China 6 or 7 years'.I've never heard of the word ,I had to look it up.Maybe it's because I don;t speak Chinese.
I think I get the point of this post. It's a distraction, talk about this obvious no question so we won't talk about something 'sensitive'.
ScotsAlan:
If you click on my profile you can see all the questions I have posted. This is a typical question for me. I am honestly interested in the question, I am seeing this word used more and more, and while I don't like the word, it is good to know other peoples opinion. I can see both sides of the argument now, and I am agreeing with the "depends on the context" side. My personal point of view has been swayed. That's why I post here. I like debate between a wide range of people.
Sticks and stones may break my bones
But names will never hurt me.
this is from 1862 grow up
I have great admiration and respect for most people on Earth. There are a few, percentage maybe 2-5% that do not deserve my respect or yours or anybodys.
I have a bad mouth.... I use words as I see fit, and certainly never as really derogatory. well sometimes, when pissed off or just on a rant.
I like niggers, pakis, ragheads, jews, redskins, injuns, clamheads,infidels, sand niggers, pinkos, wasps, rednecks, papists, bible thumpers ... I really do, just do not see the issue with the words. ...
these words are not my daily language, I do refrain from using them in many situations... respect,,, face to face some of the above do not like to be named as one of them. what they should do is learn to accept what is a common language.
sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me!!!
I was at a nice western bar/restaurant the other night, sitting on the outside deck. The place isn't 'cheap', but not incredibly expensive (good steaks at 300RMB, burgers at 65RMB).
A group of 4 male Chinese sit at the table next to us, and one guy was continuously hawking and spitting onto the floor under the table.
They obviously have money. They've had some education. And they have some vague understanding of what 'civilised' behaviour is about.
I called this guy out, and called him a nong (granted, my Chinese sucks).
Nong is an effective word. It denotes backward mentality and behaviour. You don't have to be a farmer to be a nong (anymore). And, nong has the added benefit of being simple enough to understand.
iWolf:
Nice demonstration of how much more enlightened you are than them.....where's my Happy Meal?
Shining_brow:
Are you actually trying to equate calling someone a nong with repeatedly spitting on the floor of a good restaurant???
philbravery:
so is this where he uses his go to phrase "you want fries with that" personally i think The Bugers are better at Hungry Jacks (Burger King)
eve89:
I agree, the burgers are better at Burger King though McDonald's has better fries.
Let's go full on then. Ban LBN nd any anti-foreigner word too.
Then we ban words that might offend people. Then we ban words that could offend someone. Finally, we just ban all words and the site shuts down.
Censorship is wrong on all levels, son. Big Brother should not be watching me, and if he is, I've got a couple of fingers for him.
