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Q: What percentage of foreigners do you think are working illegally in China?
I didnt think it was so many. I mostly thought it was students who took part time work and Africans overstaying their visas in Guangzhou and other trading places. But this website has made me think about it. Lots of posts about getting Z visas without a degree and other posts about spousal visas. Seems many have these kind of Q visas. Isnt it illegal to work on them? Im not judging at all. Do what you gotta do. But im curious as to what percent is here legally. 50%? Less?
Full disclosure: I spent about 2 years working on a business visa when I first came to Guangdong. Situation calls for it, you need to work , and China sure doesnt make it easy sometimes. So again, Not judging, or even asking anyone to fess up. Just a numbers game.
I would say a good 60% (not just workers, but all others who are here) are illegal. Why? Students and those from third-world countries who could never meet the standards required to gain legal employment.
Schools themselves are responsible for a large number of those who are illegal yet don't know any better (schools that get visas through other companies and other locations {hell-ooooooo Hampson!). False documents, etc.
It's all semantics - the 'word' of law vs. the 'spirit of the law' {exists big time in China}. Mianzi, guanxi. Time of year (hey! Spring Festival, let's crack down on everyone to collect fines and bribes!). Locale, small cities tend to look the other way whereas big cities with big competition for enforcement to move up are stringent.
Consultants and "volunteers" can receive stipends but not "cash" payments. What constitutes a stipend?
Finally, I fully disclose that mike695.ca is a self-confessed criminal and should be given the death penalty! Death by a thousand xiaojies!
I worked illegally for a bit. Situation called for it, and I had no choice. Eventually they did get my Z, though.
There's a very small percentage of companies who are authorized to hire foreigners, and there are infinitely more schools who aren't.
The demand vastly outnumbers the supply. I'd say the amount of illegal foreigners is more than 70%.
ironman510:
Your point is exactly why I hope they use the resource of foreigners who are married here to Chinese, why make it illegal if they need us? Well this is China.
RiriRiri:
Because with super restrictive foreign employement laws, it's good to have a flexible pool of precarious people you can hit anytime.
i would say at least 50/50..coz i met a lot of them holding business visa to work in shenzhen. after the new by-laws and they know it is not right to do it and ask me to help them to apply for work visa.
Yes, it is not easy but not that difficult either. just meet some basic standards like :
for company has at least 50 sqm and local chinese staff, apply for the foreign employment system. the newly-established company is harder to apply but still can.
for applicant: 1 bachelor degree or above, related working experience, better 2 years or more 2 no health problem like Aids etc.
others are just the paper work and police interview. that's it. If someone has done it before, it is complicated for them. I have to say the whole -applying-working-permit-and-resident-permit is not rational and user-friendly. But this is China so suck it up.
ironman510:
You should speak for yourself. Really, getting a Z visa is a pain in the butt, , it's a very long process, sometimes it requires us to go back to our home country... Those who are married to Chinese can't just take 2 to 3 months off and go.
Based on what I see, hear, and what my brain tells me, I've always said about 50%, thinking that most people thought a lessor amount.
But here it seems my estimate could be on the conservative side.
So, whatever...it matters not to me at all. Should it?
iWolf:
I should matter to you. Illegal workers force the wages of legitimate workers down and in general, give legitimate workers a bad rep with their casual flaunting of the law.
I would rather a more balanced system but this is the one we must live with for now.
mike695ca:
This question made me think of people like @iwolf , now he sounds like hes legal. So im not talking about him directly, but this site USED to be pretty anti- non degree teachers ( it has toned down quite alot). I saw many a rant about dragging down the quality and salaries. But seeing that so many people on this site arent in fact legal then it seems like alot of hypocrites in hindsight.
Anyways, no royce, I dont think you or anyone else should care. Thats the system, and good teachers and workers are put in that situation. Not anyones business how they make a living in my book. Just curious is all.
Sinobear:
@ iWolf: People who accept lower wages are responsible for lower wages. There are people from various countries who'd gladly accept 4K a month and they are here legally.
RiriRiri:
I don't think people working without Z really ever affected the wages of the "legals". It's just two separate worlds. Especially since the authorities perfectly knew about the situation, thus were passively supporting it until they didn't.
No clue, spent most of my time in the country in top-tier east coast cities where enforcement is relatively strict. Full disclosure, this was my third gig in Asia and the previous two had me working on visitors' visas, but I never felt in danger of getting punished. Certainly would not do that if working in a place like Beijing or Shenzhen.
Was offered a 20,000ish job in a western city but didn't take it because they wouldn't provide proper visa (sent me a shady invitation letter for a tourist visa claiming that the school owner had met me on a trip to my country and wanted me to visit him). I bet the numbers are quite high in the smaller cities (where maybe the boss, the police chief, and the immigration control are drinking buddies if not cousins), not much in the east coast cities. So the question comes down to the relative percentage of foreign people working in top-tiered cities where enforcement is strict vs. those working outside.
Sinobear:
"...where maybe the boss, the police chief, and the immigration control are drinking buddies if not cousins..."
That's the truth. Had one job in a small city where they asked me what visa they should give me! Everyone was so interconnected that there was no chance of outside concerns getting involved.
mike695ca:
Your logic is sound for sure, but im still not sure thats the case. I have met countless foreigners in the largest cities, SZ guangzhou ect, who come for promise of much larger salaries and then get stuck with a Business visa. And as you can see with this site, many many many are on the Spouse Visa. I also think people either dont like to admit it, or fear of reprisals? I dont know, but im starting to think that many who say they are legal, a good chunk arent either.
Thats what happened to me, I had a Z visa my first year, then moved to GZ and they couldnt get me a work visa. I liked the money and the job and i didnt feel uncomfortable about it at all. Never had a problem. Then the next job got me a Z and its been that way ever since.
Sinobear:
Again, spirit of the law vs. letter of the law.
The law, according to Beijing, is that each and every foreigner will register with the local police if they're staying 24 or more hours in one place. Guilin PSB says, "Nah, come back after one month if you're still here."
The police station where I'm registered is totally cool and casual about things.
The police station where I used to live in GZ were vicious (according to one officer, they didn't like to be that way but their jobs depended on routine and regular reports on the foreigners living in the area).
A consultant (vice: employee) can consult and receive a stipend (vice: salary). There are no regulations that limit said stipend. So, if your contract is worded properly in Chinese, mei you wenti.
How many people have outside work? That's considered (letter of the law) illegal now. How many people with outside work pay tax on the earnings (cue crickets)?
I think it all boils down to either the company that you work for and how you conduct yourself in China. Cause trouble, get trouble (although, I've known some people who've never caused any trouble at all but seem to be a magnet for police attention).
RiriRiri:
A constant of Chinese laws of everything (at least that I have encountered) is that they are designed with super convenient loopholes and vagueties always right at the good spots, that could be seen as a way to provide some degree of flexibility needed in a big country, but well, you know the local law enforcement...
I'd say 60% is a fair estimate. Even though many people qualify for a work visa, the system is set up in a way that it's practically impossible without an agent, and they will more often than not go through other routes to make it easier.
Sinobear:
"I" what? You didn't finish your sentence! You didn't happen to mention Candlejack did you? Because if you
Well, if we factor in the fact that foreigners are suppose to be legally working on spousal visas... then I would something like 65%, possibly even higher.
Anyway, screw the government. It's by far their own damn fault.
Before the new"Visa Law's" came July 2013 it was at 80% from what I heard.
Now 2014 maybe 73%.
mike695ca:
Haha 73% such an exact number. Wheres the decimals? Haha awsome.
I would say it's about the same as the percentage of Chinese who work illegally.
They most definetly do not like paying tax here.
A lot, probably more than 60%, most employers who can't process Z-visas will pay a lot more, kind of like a "risk bonus", especially true in the ESL industry. China can't really solve the problem anyway, the risk of being caught is non-existent except if your employer piss-off the local officials, then the police will raid your workplace, your will be kicked and your employer will be heavily fined if they don't have good guanxi.
Hard to know. I guess it boils down to the question of how last year's new visa "law" (let's rather say it was a new implementation of mostly the same law, because not much has actually changed textually speaking), but more importantly and HK restrictions affected the long term stay of some.
Maybe 40% and probably half of them, not by choice - meaning they were lied to by some recruiter and don't have the extra money for a HK run.
http://eslwatch.info/china-2/about-the-law-china/12117-1-600-expat-china...
donnie3857:
one of the ways you can know is the recruiter won't let you have your foreign expert certificate. But this is true because the recruiter/school/company wasn't able to get a permit to hire foreiners
I remember during the Shenzhen to Hong Kong visa paradise days for illegal working foreigners back in 2011 to be rumored at 80%, that's just for Shenzhen. But I'd say its at 63% today throughout China. I still meet and see a ton of these guys weekly and they always find away to beat the system.
PS: Mike enjoy the rainy Sunday man. You can check out a good satellite shot from this website, a Filipino friend said it's undated every 30 minutes:
Among all expats I've run into so far, where the topic of work and visa has come up, only one has fessed up to working (teaching) on a tourist visa. Most expats I meet are stationed for international companies, so their ducks are on rows.
I've been in China 6 years and worked for 4 of them. From what I have heard and seen, I'd also say 50/50. I have also found some other interesting information. that is systemic. For a company, or a school to hire foreigners cost a huge sum of money. Just getting the license to hire foreigners is costly. The company, school or agent must have been in business for at least 2 years. Guangxi and corruption will take care of these issues in the countryside, or in Sichuan. I had the opprtunity to talk to a University student who had worked part time for several different companies/schools hiring foreigners. Non-whites get paid almost half. Reason; standard of living in the home countries is lower than in China. But compensation for fairer skinned people is dropping both in real and relative terms. China wants to exploit Africa, so more applicants from Africa are being encouraged but this is being countered by the racism in China. This means there are far more non-white foreigners working here illegally than white ones.
Eorthisio:
mike695ca:
Agreed. But its much easier in other fields to get that license. In manufacturing say, its almost free. Just show you can support the salaries. Not an issue at all.
