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Q: What's China's most beautiful dream?
From Cat Theory to Three Representatives to Harmonious Society to China Dream, we have come a long way, haven't we? Or is there something gone missing? In contrast to China's worst nightmare topic, let's dream with Xi! Any idea how far China and its people can and should go?
WTF.
Those are all just words. Superficially inspiring but utterly empty catchphrases to distract Chinese people from the fact that they live in a wasteland and have no rights.
The result of Chinese peasants listening to inspiring rhetoric in the past was the social, cultural, economic and environmental rape of their country at the hands of the CCP. Not much has changed, and as Chinese people seem more interested in self-praise than self-awareness, I doubt much will change.
The Chinese public (see for example, you) still think that dreamy, inspiring words are a substitute for actual progress. Explain to me what benefit "beautiful dreams" are in the face of extreme wealth disparity, legal inequality, an exploitative labour market, environmental ruin, censorship, surveillance, restricted speech, indoctrination, rampant materialism, superficiality, inconsiderate behaviour, public defecation, and a culture of lies.
As a Chinese person, you need to STOP TALKING ABOUT BEAUTIFUL DREAMS AND START ADDRESSING REALITY.
Pretending that the skies will be blue, the pastures green, your leaders benevolent, your society harmonious and that other countries will grovel beneath China's military boot are all just fantasies.
Do you find it depressing that the only "beauty" in China is utter detachment from reality?
flyingheart:
Actually this is a tongue-in-the-cheek question. I've edited it so no more misunderstanding.
The last time China had a dream it turned skies across the country blacker than Mordor in the Lord of the Rings.
And that China dream ad is played all in subway tunnels which you can view on a long line of tv's when you're in the train car. The ad just shows a Chinese aircraft carrier with some planes landing on it. (Wait, thought they didn't have that capability yet?) So Chinese people's dreams are to have a strong military? Is that gonna do something about social welfare, housing, or the environment? Why does China need a carrier anyway? Take an example from America's book where so much money is inappropriately funneled into the military machine which could be better used on ourselves.
I'm not sure what a great China dream would be but really all they need to do is start reversing problems that were created from the first dream. Lessen the pollution and that'd be a real turnaround.
TedDBayer:
China bought the aircraft carrier promissing to use it as a casino, do you really think Chinese pilots could land a plane on rolling seas when they can't park a car? It is a secret casino designed to look like a carrier.
Coming a long way, yes. It could have been the same 30 years earlier if people did not let one stubborn cynic (Mao) monopolize the power to realize his own utopia.
Coming a long way, yes. How can we be sure it is as good as it gets. If we look at countries who started from the same point, like a South Korea or Vietnam, it seems it's the expected trajectory rather than a wonderful miracle.
China and it's people can go as far as they are able to fight their very own demons.
If rule of the law stays impossible
If all things can be only top to bottom
If people don't understand personal responsibility
If power keeps being the privilege of few
If emotion prevails over rationality
Then things will just follow the inertia of a slowing economy. Dreaming is cheap. Make the list of what Xi promised in 2012, and look what have been done *for real*. Some people in jail (some for corruption, some for asking to apply laws and asking more transparency, checkout the New Citizen Movement) more censorship, none of the economy issues really addressed, no improvements in state welfare, no reform of the education system.
This looks like the China Dream to me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zubIrDpL_hA&list=UUSoPLkmWb7wLC3OXDWCietA
DrMonkey:
The school scene could have been in 2010, in any poor province countryside. But it's 1964...
DrMonkey:
Those poor souls didn't hear about the 3 Represents
http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/pictures/lost-childhoods-of-ethnic-yi-migrant-worker-children.html
Scandinavian:
@DrM. There are 61 million children whose parents are migrant workers. As this has been going on for years, there is now a grown up population where the mental problems of having not had proper parenting (not that I think many Chinese parents are proper parents when they are physically present)
flyingheart:
Looks like I need to get out of China to see the China Dream in this video because I have lost ALL my means to go over GWF .
FlyingHeart, most people here have the belief that the real dream is to get married (after the guy has bought the house and car) and then pop off a kid. Have mum and dad stay at home to look after the sprout, and then save enough money to go overseas for a holiday (or 2). This, in a cushy job where they have no responsibility, plenty of time to chat on QQ and buy crap off Taobao, and boss around some underling who probably knows better than they do (while plotting how to over-ride them) and to take a few hong-baos from their elevated position.
So dream a bit bigger - of having their own business and making a mint on something no-one else ever thought of (see Victoria's post...).
That isn't likely to change....
I think it is to finally have booger-cam as standard equipment in BMW. Share recently excavated booger details with family and colleagues all while blasting horn at the idiot on the trike who is gathering styrofoam.
can you answer the question?
what do you think is China's dream?
as 'foreigners' we view things differently from Chinese people, having as many perspectives as there are countries in the world, only to be told "you don't understand China".
We see things through the filters of our local customs and traditions, comparing what we see in China with our own experiences - not always favorably in the eyes of Chinese people.
Often if asked questions like this ("what do you think of......") I get the impression i am being asked for validation of an existing idea, rather than being engaged in a debate about a particular topic. We get enough of it on this forum where people offer good advice only to get the verbal equivalent of sulking and temper-tantrums.
Many of the posters can seem harsh, and the valid advice/idea is lost on the OP.
So, as a Chinese person: what is your perspective on where China is going?
I think Xi's dream is the same as 50 cents. Get rich or die trying.
Burak43:
I don't know. I think for the top level CCP guys absolute power takes priority above personal wealth.
For the lower level officials the Chinese dream is definitely to take in as much bribes as they can, then to high tail it out of China before they get caught. All the time proclaming China to be the greatest nation in the world.
That Japan will fall down and grovel at their feet, begging forgiveness.
Alas, that's not going to happen...........and now......Japan.....is......China's....worst....nightmare.
That Japan will fall down and grovel at their feet, begging forgiveness.
Alas, that's not going to happen...........and now......Japan.....is......China's....worst....nightmare.
Dream? Yes, dream on probably! At the rate it's going it's going to be their worst nightmare!
Without a doubt, China has come a long way.
If we compare China to Europe ( apologies upfront... Goodwin's law will appear), it took hundreds of years from the start of the industrial revolution for Europe to really become a "civilized" place. We had destitute poverty all through the 19th century until well into the middle of the 20th century.
Yes, China has made mistakes. But so have we.
Lets look at the 20th century from about the 30's.
Some examples of what we had.... coal burning power stations causing acid rain that stripped the Scandinavian forests of foliage, racism against immigrants, ruling elite ( just look at where most of the UK Government went to school), polluted rivers, polluted seas, once abundant fish species that are now endangered, mass unemployment, social unrest (riots), wrongfully convicted people, Government surveillance of the populace, Government agents sinking an activist groups ship (Rainbow Warrior), energy shortages ( winter of discontent-UK), enforced adoptions of babies, enforced emigration of babies.... and so on.
These were all things that happened, and the solutions were not instant. There are still many problems in Europe today, with no instant solutions in sight.
Despots? Yup, we had them. We had the mad little Austrian who sent millions to their deaths. We had genocide in the Balkans ( only this week the Dutch military had a judgement made against them on that).
This century we have invaded soverign nations to enforce regime change. Our bombs have killed thousands of innocent civilians. Our drug companies refuse to license generic copies of life saving drugs to poor nations. And the Pope (OK... not European now) insists that wearing condoms is a sin.
What have China done? Rather a lot really. When one considers China was still a fuedalistic agrarian society at the beginning of the 20th century, it's really rather amazing.
China's dream? To be seen as equals. And not to have every mistake of the last 100 years brought up as evidence of their supposed inferiority to the west.
That's my take on it anyway 
.
DrMonkey:
Yes, Victorian-era conditions were awful in Europe for most factory workers and miners... Those people fought, industry and government buckled. Compare here, where most people are completely apathetic, and those who aren't end up in jail or anonymity. Where unions are forbidden, where communication tools are deemed "dangerous for social harmony". At best, people go crying in Beijing for justice, completely shunned from public attention.
Pollution... Europe had awful pollution, it have been fought and it improved. Because it's possible to have rule of the law, and because a minority cared and were vocal about. Europe was the first to fight such problems... but now this problems are known, technology greatly improved, it's not possible to say "but we didn't know about those issues". Here, in China, just *applying laws* is a struggle, being vocal about anything is a recipe for troubles. Just having reliable data without political meddling is a problem.
No freak'in excuses and "but others had such issues before". Here, that's used as a very convenient way to side-away many systemic problems and not address them. The abject pollution and social condition could be better if simply applying *existing* laws was possible and if power was not the monopoly it is. Why people should feel any responsibility for anything if they have zero power, zero influence ? As much as your discourse is coherent and is not inherently false, it carefully look away from the elephant herd in the room.
hunana:
I agree that it's not an excuse and it doesn't condone the problems that China desparately needs to face, but I think what ScotsAlan says in this post should be considered when people make blanket criticisms of Chinese people as though they are automatically superior because they're from the West.
ScotsAlan:
Ah. That elephant follows me everywhere.
I don't disagree with what you say Dr M, credibility of Government of a very important thing. Real power to change only comes from people having faith in their Government.
And yes, in the west, Governments are mostly bound to keep within the law. They can change the law of course, but that's difficult to do these days without popular mandate.
Apathy of the populace because they have no power? Yes of course. In the last Uk General election, the Party who eventually gained power got 36% of the votes. But only 65% of the registered voters voted ( good good turnout actually). That puts the actual percentage of who voted for the current UK leader somewhere about 24%. That's 24% of the people who bothered to register to vote in the first place.
That indicates to me that most people in the UK don't trust their leader. And indeed, in the recent European elections, the current leaders were given an overwhelming thumbs down.
Having said all that (yup, I know it's rubbish), the people do have faith in the courts to keep the elected leaders in check. And I concede that is not the case here.
So your winning this discussion at the moment Dr M.
ScotsAlan:
Yes hunana.
That's pretty much what I am saying.
The west took a long time to get to where it is. China really only started a few decades ago. I say give it time.
DrMonkey:
@Hunana I very carefully avoid the "West is best" discourse, as it's a sure way to loose an auditory and makes for a bad argumentation : "you should do what I say because I'm the best, don't ask why". That's indeed not convincing, and I hear that too often :)
@ScotAlan Technology of the 21th century is not the one of late 19th century, we have a lot more experience, and this experience is largely accessible to Chinese. A lot of the brightest Chinese studied abroad, after all ;) The argument "it took 100 years in Europe, so it's fine for this to take 100 years" here does not convince me, because current knowledge, tech, etc. offers great shortcuts.
For example, coal can desulfurized, exhaust can be filtered. But that reduce margins, so no, scratch that, my kids won't breath that smog so I don't care... In China, none of this is done on a large scale, 300 more coal-fired plants are under construction while Li shake his little fists at the pollution. No public investigation is done to see where the smog in city X comes from, and journalist don't seem very interested to look either... It's not 1890 anymore, nor 1990, we have a lot cases of successful and failed attempt to curb pollution.
Pollution issues are well understood since at least the 90's : there are public inspections, norms, regulations, etc. But since the 90's, it have not much weight and effect, because of capitalism with Chinese characteristics and public apathy. I pick pollution, I could have pick social welfare or education.
DrMonkey:
I took desulfurization of coal as an illustration that the argument " Europe needed 100 years, so China need 100 years too" is not very solid. First, some reading about desulfurization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flue-gas_desulfurization
Note that in England, people started to care about it 1920, start to implement it seriously in 1930, it became standard in 1970 when air pollution was really a urgent problem. So, problem is known, a solution is known and since then the technology had time to improve, get cheaper, better understood, etc.
Now, let's search about desulfurization in China. Funny, it was a hot topic the 15th of July
http://www.bna.com/china-power-suppliers-n17179892331/
So actually, there are reglementation about this specific technology in China, it's just that power companies want to make a buck on the side by avoiding to use desulfurization, and the hell with the lungs of the whole damned population. Fines are raining on power suppliers, but why power suppliers don't follow the laws ? It has nothing to do with ignorance or catching on with modern technology.
ScotsAlan:
And they are doing something about it Dr M.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-10/china-plans-ban-on-imports-of-coal-with-high-ash-high-sulfur.html
And who will be the losers when China stops burning low grade high sulfur coal....? ... American miners of course. Because America sells it to China.
This is what gets me. The west preaches to China, but it still trades with them. It's not just the Chinese who are making a quick buck at the expense of the Chinese environment. It's not just the Chinese who are exploiting the low labour wages here.
Yes, the Chinese Government encouraged it and allowed it to happen. And in return they have a fair bit of cash in the bank. Now they have the money and the majority of the manufacturing plants, they can start to rectify it. They can start to bring the laws in. Because China has western manufacturers over a barrel now. Pay up or get out. And if you go somewhere else, hey we will undercut you and put you out of business.
I think China has played the game well. And the greedy western bankers played right into their hands.
ScotsAlan:
Wow... all these words and only a single point. My fingers will be worn out before I can get a flashlight.
Dr M. I am not totally disagreeing with what you say. I am only partially disagreeing with your interpolated conclusion that the problems in this country wholely stem from bad Governance.
I personally think the Government are doing a good job. Based on the same evidence as you have, my conclusion ( really just my opinion), is that it's the individuals who are the problem. This whole quick buck and "to hell with everyone else" mentality.
Every country has people who will ignore the law for their own personal gain. It just seems that China has a higher proportion of them per head of population.
DrMonkey:
Disclaimer: sorry if I sound emotional about it, interesting topic, and I find the debate constructive ^^
"played the game well", when it's hundred of millions of people who have to breath smog and when it could have been much less worse, if only things policies were proactive rather than reactive ? Punitions are coming *only* because smogs episodes were *literally* of the charts this winter in Dongbe,i ie. beyond what can be measured ! The damage is already done, touching a large majority of people who won't be able to afford the treatments for their future ailments.
It's not smart, it's not well played, it was not the only way to improve the general level of life. Power companies bosses could sacrifice half of their empty villas and BMWs to install sulfur scrubber, for example. Of course, if you create a judicial black hole, you will attract all that is unscrupulous in this world.
Blocking imports of foreign coal, when most coal used in China is mined in China ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China#Resource_flow
For 2011 : 177 Mtons imported, 3576 Mtons produced in China.
Sounds more like good old token protectionism to me.
ScotsAlan:
Ha ha yes. China is the biggest producer of coal. And it is a major polluter. Of that there is no doubt.
But they are not the only ones. The USA uses a lot too. And yes, they do burn cleaner coal.
It would be interesting to do a coal usage per head of population search. It will have changed a lot over the past decade of course as the US moves towards fracked natural gas.
Moving away from the coal bit ( I concede to you... it is the cause of massive health problems), what about that other common criticism... censorship. Something we all suffer from, no matter what the state of our health.
I won't post links because I reckon you know about this already, but recently we have had:
European Union: right to forget. I call this censorship.
France: blogger fined over bad restaurant review
And a lot of cases of stupid people being jailed for writing stupid things on twitter.
As I see it, the west is slowly moving towards increased censorship and "thought policing"
This is connected to my answer... bet we went off on a coal tangent.
Dabate here? Or wait and hijack another future question? 
DrMonkey:
Pollution per head ? No problems, comes from here, you can read the whole thing, it's interesting http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/09/the-real-population-problem/
Mail culprits are USA, China, India. "Bobby does it, so I do it too", that's not how adults do things.
For censorship, if you put on the same level censorship in China and in Europe, I call BS on this. You have a few isolated instances which are widely denounced, versus systematic barrage of doom without any accountability.
DrMonkey:
I stop hijacking, promise :) My point is, China have deep problems, the typical excuses don't hold much water, it is due to systemic issues people refuse to address here. Yes those problems exist elsewhere, but at a very different scale and frequency. The size of the country is not an excuse either.
ScotsAlan:
Yes Dr M.
I do agree with you. We just disagree about the source.
Many people say it's the Governments fault. I say it's not.
I blame face. The whole concept like a malignant tumour.
There comes a point in the development of any society where social awareness and compassion becomes a must. If we look at the buzz phrases from the recent leaders we see they are actually designed to try to instill this social awareness. CCTV is full of propaganda trying to instill new values into the masses. TV shows showing famous dads spending time with their daughters and such like.
I think the Government are working hard to make things better, But they have an uphill struggle to defeat such an ingrained value as face.
That's my tuppence worth .
Good data about coal use by the way.
royceH:
Whoh........that's all? I just sent out for more popcorn.
Well done Men, a sticker for you both!
ScotsAlan:
Feel free to join in Mr H.
Dr M has the edge on me at the moment but I am formulating a new argument that will blow him away :-)
royceH:
Nah....can't. You're both too good for me. My contributions are on a simpler plane. I'm only a Tier 6 on the Martian Scale.
Look forward to your rejoinder, however.
Addit; was only kidding about the popcorn. As you know, there isn't any.
ScotsAlan:
Dr M.
Tonight I went for a head massage with a friend. It's not far away, only a 30 RMB taxi ride.
My Chinese is rubbish, but it is gets me a taxi home. To get home, we have to turn left at a crossroad. The crossroad has a filter lane in each quadrant. Imagine the following conversation is in Chinese. You know the words, I can't spell them....
I told the driver to turn left. He turned right. Where are you going I said. He done a U turn. Then he turned right (in effect straight on from our original point). Where are you going I shout. I want to go left. Red light he shouts back. Red light!!! He then does another U turn, turns right and heads up the road I want to go.... he is actually now behind the truck that was at the original red light which has since turned green.
"Car boss, why don't you just wait for the red light to turn green?"
"I don't want" he answers.
So the Chinese Government decided traffic lights were a good idea. They installed them. taught people about them, had people do a test to make sure they understand them.
And then the people do really stupid things to avoid them.
Why is that the Government's fault?
Will democracy, access to youtube, and a twitter account really remove such utter stupidity from the heads of people.?
Or do we need another cultural revolution to get rid of this pointless face thing? Because this driver saw stopping at a red light and waiting as a loss of face.
Scandinavian:
@Monkey and Scots.
When you talk censorship and pollution, look here
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/hong-kong-authorities/1263272.html
Also, the cab driver not respecting lights. This is because there is NO enforcement of rules what so ever. In Zhuhai, the two worst types of drivers are cab drivers and driving instructors. They did a "crackdown" on bus drivers, so from one day to another, busses started stopping at pedestrian crossings etc. The crackdown ended and now busses don't stop anymore.
Oh. The way cabs drive, it does add to the pollution.
ScotsAlan:
Ha ha. Interesting link Scan. "Sensitive information" indeed.
My mate has a pollution app on his IPhone that shows the official pollution index alongside the data from the US consulate. They are always different.
Regarding the taxi driver, I don't think he will ever change. There could be police at every road junction and he would just ignore the. We have a lot of junctions with cameras now, and the lengths drivers go to to bypass them as they go through a red light...... amazing.
To have the rest of the world bow down at Chinas feet and agree that the 288,000 year old map they just found proves that the world is China.
I guess it depends on who is doing the dreaming. The government, the poor people, or the rich people.
Whew! Had I known my question would produce such a wonderful debate between Alan and Dr. M...It's a huge increase of face, you know! 
To Sorrel (if you discover this, sorry for my late reply...I've been tied up with work the whole week), what do I think is China Dream? I think I need to sort it out by class:
1. The lowest rank below the poverty line: Food, living space, clothes, tuition.
2. The low to medium rank at or a little above the poverty line: Cheaper rents, better clothes and education.
3. The middle class: larger apartments, foreign passports/permanent resident permits in the first world, more time to sleep, eat, and be with family.
4. The rich: a second/third/fourth wife, more money, greater influence on the three classes above, , less fat, more style.
5. The super rich: how to stay low and transfer their money to safer places;
6. The aristocracy: how to keep their and their children's and their grandchildren's privileges.
What has gone missing? An effective mechanism to allocate resources and settle interests in a way for the people to cooperate, not rob, to respect, not leer, to care more about humanity, less about vanity.
But sadly with huge income gaps, international double standards, and invalid laws in what we humorously call "Heaven Dynasty", I don't think I'll see that coming in my lifetime.
The Chinese dream is to have every foreigner leave China and to take 20 of them with us.
Scandinavian:
that isn't enough. Every foreigner needs to bring more to fully empty the place
