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Q: Why did you move to a developing country?
Many of the users here seem really pissed off at the lack of cleanliness, hygiene and general lack of development here. So why did you move to a developing country? What interested you about China and drew your attention?
I agree with you on users' attitudes - I actually love it here, and that's why I moved here. I love the chaos, I accept to deal with the things I cannot change without irrational hatred and generalisation, and I also came here because it is a good place to start your career, lots of opportunity! Rent is also cheaper than at home, and the food nomnomnom. 
DrMonkey:
"If you don't like it here, move". Sure, because you can move the other side of the world with your husband/wife (you won't force the decision on them, will you ?), change career, while everybody feel safe (...in a culture of learned insecurity...) with just a snap of the fingers. That is not so simple if you have more than a backpack with 5 days of clothes and a guitar to handle in your life :) And if you say "you should have though of that before marrying and starting a career in China", I answer "yes, but I figured many things after I was already into all those things, not before".
sm90:
You can move, but I understand that sometimes it is not feasible or that your wife/husband may not want to, but in that scenario you should probably accept that you have also made the decision not to move and stop moaning/posting so many angry posts.
This is not necessarily aimed at you but in general, but you did ask the question.
ilcornalito:
Thank you DrMonkey for understanding!!!! I always hear many people telling me the same crap. Sometimes it might look like we have a choice but in reality we don't, especially when our lives affect others.
DrMonkey:
@icornalito I'm in a such a case, but we are leaving China in a few months. I managed to have the following arrangement : 2 to 3 months in China, the rest of the year back home. This way, my wife and my future kids keep a stable, regular contact with China and the family there. This kind of deals are really hard to get unless your employer really, really needs you. It took about 2 years to build that situation, and to explain to my wife what are the gains and the losses. I also love to hear this kind of "enjoy it or GTFO" answers.
sm90:
Dr Monkey, I didn't say "GTFO or move". I just feel that if you really are as angry as many of the users on here are, then maybe you should consider moving, and if you decide not to, which is also an active decision, you should perhaps try to be a bit less aggressive about the country you have chosen to stay in.
I wanted to experience a new culture and China is an easy place to start, and I had already spent a fair number of years learning Chinese. I will stay for the long term because of a job I was fortunate to land while here, but I'm also enjoying myself here. Salary is high, rent and food are cheap, have a good community of friends, and the job is good. What more can you ask?
Because I lived & worked in an Asian developing country (ie. Vietnam, 2 years), and the "developing country" aspect was fine for me. Then I had the chance to do a 1 year post-doc in China in good conditions, so I just took it. Sheltered in an university campus, it was a good experience. So I thought I could settle down and integrate in China just fine : learn the language, hang out with the locals, you'll be accepted for what you are. Then, I saw and learned many aspects of life in China that I didn't quite get before.
I've yet to see many things I've seen in China *on a regular basis* in say, Vietnam or Cambodia (the later is a really, really poor country). Countryside toilets in Cambodia are cleaner than many toilets in Chinese campus, for Pete's sake ! I know, it's just a provocative example, but "China is a developing country, very large and many people" as a explanation for every thing, it is ...lazy.
humbug:
I believe that the economic benefits and general career benefits that can come from living in China are fairly unique... I don't know about Vietnam, but are there as many job opportunities or opportunities for career advancement as here? Many people chose to work in this country for the advantages it can bring and hold the society up to Western developed standards, but in truth, they wouldn't necessarily be able to live this well in a Western, developed country.
DrMonkey:
=> Work opportunity in Vietnam
Yes, about the same as in China, apart for R&D, which is my job, unless you are ok working for peanuts... The country is smaller, so less positions, obviously.
=> Advantages of living in China
If you are single and with no kids, yes, to some extent. You can save more money... And that's about it. If you are not ok with the public schools in China for your kids, then it's international school. Here in Suzhou, that would mean my full income just for that ! Accommodation is about the same price as back home (France) per meter square, but the construction standard is vastly different, and we are talking home with a garden vs. a poorly constructed flat. I hope you are in good health too. I had to stop running outside, because the pollution levels are too high for this too often, this year. So I paid for a gym and I run on a treadmill. What I don't spend in China, I pay it in other ways (typically, my health and risks).
Sinobear:
Dr. Monkey is right on the money. If you're young and single, China is heaven...a playground...fantasyland. Try swinging your piece around when you're married with kids. Even 20K RMB/mo doesn't seem like hot doodoo when you're supporting a family on your own.
Englteachted:
Humbug: Why is 'standards' 'western standards' to you and Chinese people? Are you telling me honesty was invented by western countries? Employers paying their employees on time and not stealing part or all of their salary is a 'western standard'? Having 'rule of law' where a guy won't be imprisoned because he was poisoned is that something only western countries value? Your BS gives too much credit to western culture.
Another "You don't like it? Fuck off home" post. We haven't had one of these for a while.
Ever thought that some of us have made commitments here that don't make it that easy to leave just yet? No of course you haven't. Why would you?
Eorthisio:
Those posts always make me laugh, they tell us to fuck off but would call us racists for telling the same to angry immigrants (including Chinese) spitting their hate on the native folks back home. They can put their double standards where I think.
nzteacher80:
I thought about people having commitments and not being able to leave. Then I thought about why someone would make commitments in a country they were unsure of. Then I thought about if they had thought about the commitments they made before making them.
xunliang:
Yeah, stuff trying new things, right? Let's all stay in our comfort zones. 
Because western companies moved their manufacturing here.
I had no intention of sitting in a bar back home moaning about the Chinese taking all the jobs for the price of a bowl of rice.
If you cant beat them, join them.
Its not the Chinese who are the enemy. Its the western bankers.
Read 'Shogun' too many times and thought I was moving to a similar culture that considered honor above all else.
Boy, was I wrong. Stayed for the laughs, though (16 years and counting).
Sinobear:
And to Humbug's credit, it is a valid question. You get your altruistic "want to save the world" foreigners here who couldn't hack volunteering in Africa, those who are more than willing to "play the game" here despite avowing that they hate games. There are several members of these very forums who came here under the pretense to teach but quickly honked on some Chinese bobo to get into another position based on their arrogance and bravado alone (more power to them).
If you read Korean forums, Vietnamese forums, Cambodian forums, Thailand forums, you'll find a hell of a lot of similarities in complaints, bitching and down right ignorance.
We are what we are and we do what we do.
'Nuff said.
ScotsAlan:
I agree Sino. It is a fair question.
There is a particular "ex-pat" blog I follow, and all the blogger ever reports about is how shit China is. She posts links to every bit of vague negative news she can find. And the longer she is here, the more anti China she seems to become.
Yeah, we all have our BCDs and have a bit of a rant now and then. It's no different to having a bad home country day and having a rant about that.
Good question. I think my country is completely awesome and China sucks. I moved here so I could bitch about all and sundry to anyone who will listen. I'm more than willing to take money from the Chinese, teach their children, marry a Chinese woman and live in their country but I hold a very low opinion of them as a whole. This may make me seem like massive hypocrite but it doesn't bother me much. It's either living in China or moving back into my parent's basement and working at Denny's - as a BA doesn't qualify you for much else.
ScotsAlan:
Yeah. And no way would you let your mixed kids go through the same awful education system that your wife went through.
My wife was so brainwashed we had to stand to attention and salute our Mao statute every morning.
She was so dumb she thought Africa was a country and not a continent.
But I put here right. I educated her and showed her the error of her ways. And I explained how she is the product of a substandard immoral education system.
It was hard work, but I freed her mind.
Oh, she has great tits by the way 
.......
Only joking.
Forum posters tend to be a bit extrovert. So forums are full of extrovert opinions.
dongbeiren:
NZteacher, the sage of political correctness, has spoken again
" take money from the Chinese"
Someone with another account a while back wrote the same thing. And that is very wrong. Working for your pay does not equate to 'taking'.
Do you ever criticize what's wrong with your home country?
I always criticize my country because I know America can be and should better than what it is. The same reason why I criticize China.
I'm just working here for the time being but I have a right to criticize what happens here. I eat the damn food here, so food safety is important to me. I walk the streets here, so traffic safety is my damn business.Those are just 2 examples.As long as posters are truthful in their post and not making things up (about China or other countries) than they have a right to voice and express what they see and what they think about what they see.
Remember this, the improvements that have happened over the last 20-30 years have been because of foreigners complaining and making fun of what they saw. You are welcome China.
:
I agree with you. I left America because I don't agree with their ways. Also, if you want a job, you have to go where the jobs are. Everyone lives on this planet and to make it a better place, people need to point out the negative things to fix them. Earth is starting to become a "Global Society" and that means China too. So considering that this is everyone's home, we all have the right to complain and want change.
dongbeiren:
yea the part about "taking money from Chinese" by working here is ridiculous - as if earning an honest living is akin to taking someone's money - gee by that logic anyone anywhere with a job should be accused of taking someone's money. Not really sure why foreigners in China keep getting criticized for that - probably just ignorance about how a basic economy functions
Thought China can offer me better life than what the US can offer me. But I was totally wrong about this. Going to leave in December. I do not know why Americans come to live in China for long term. But I know a lot of Chinese are deadly willing to live in the US for long term.
I came to see something different. I got what I bargained for...
I complain about China-Chinese... but everyone complains. People complain...
If China is seriously testing your sanity, then it is best to get the hell out before you do something you can`t undo.
I was curious. I wanted to see for myself. I have gotten an eyeful. My own private National Geographic channel. I didn't plan on getting married or having babies, but so be it. I am already well into my escape plan, but making the best of it while I'm here. It's been an education.
I worked in Africa and in the South Pacific, life became boring. China is a challenge, I like it.
yongge:
Once you have been to really shit places, you realise China is not that bad. Anyway, I am back home, but will be returning to China soon. Life is so boring back home.
my first choice was japan...still blaming my tour operator...
I was getting bored in my home town, too small, too quite too boring and I wanted to go somewhere else for some time. China looked good, I've been here before and thought I was prepared (wrong), I thought China was a developing country with problems but also potential and I wanted to be part of it by getting some unique experience, education and language skills. Also I thought it could be a good base for some traveling.
Of course after living here I now realized it's much shittier (lit.) than I expected, the CCP is mismanaging this country, the education is total crap and so on. Do I regret coming here? Sort of... I mean yeah, I met my fiancee, learned the language (partially), did see and experience some cool stuff, and I doubt I could have gotten the kind of working experience I'm getting back home. But I also feel my master degree here was a huge waste of time and money, I've lost a lot of faith in humanity, who knows the health effects of the air, water and food here, and FUCK the traffic here.
Would I have made the same choice again? I don't know...
Well... I've got three reasons.
1. I didn't like my country (merica). How Christianity runs the entire damn country. Didn't like the fact that we still have guns everywhere. Was in the military and saw it for what it really was.
2. China is becoming more powerful and richer than the US. Go where the money is if you want to survive in society, I say. Also, according to history, we're due for another war. I figured I'd be safer in the mountains of China rather than in a military ran country like the USA.
3. I'm still looking for it, but I have always liked the traditional culture of China. You know, the one where a small community lives and works together. Everyone has everything they need and people help each other. Their morals and values are created from actual life experiences rather than a book that's mass produced and has the worst morals and values in the history of man kind.
I've married here so I'm not planning on going back, actually probably going to renounce my citizenship before the passport expires, going use it to travel some more with the wife. If SHTF then I guess it'll be kind of useless anyway. There are some difficult things that a foreigner has to deal with here, but I feel I'm more free than in the states. At least I'm not scared to run into a police officer and if I do I'm not afraid of being shot or arrested because I disagree with him. There isn't stupid laws here that can land you in jail or force you to take a plea bargain and then you'll lose your job and home. Speaking of home prices, at least I can get one here. I'm more respected here than back home for sure. Also, I don't feel that I'm totally being deceived by my government and fed GMO food. At least in China they aren't trying to take over the world and you know that they are watching and blocking thing. You have a clear understanding of what not to do, as in the states you're paranoid and always afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.
DrMonkey:
Leave the GMO behind, and embrace tainted food ! Gutter oil, potassium rice, lead in everything, thousands of dead pigs in a river with no clear explanation, I'm not sure if you followed food actuality here. Or go for a good running session... After an hour it hurts because of the smog, that ozone smell that don't want to leave your throat. Unless you live in a place where you are likely to be unemployable. The food safety angle is maybe not the best angle :)
Sinobear:
GMO rice was also developed here. Corn, I'd bet, is all GMO seeing as how the big corporate espionage to-do in the States is over the Chinese trying to get Monsanto seeds.
And 2313265939, keep in mind that several Americans who renounced their American citizenships during the Korean and Vietnam conflicts were detained and imprisoned at various times in China for no reason. You're a complete fool if you think you can integrate, assimilate and be accepted with your actions.
:
Out of everything that I said, you guys picked one thing you disagree with and made a comment. I think that is the problem with this forum, is that everyone only focuses on the negatives. What about all the other things?
Also, Monsanto is in Canada and China is banning imported GMOs, along with many other countries around the world. As with in the states and around the world, I'm careful with what I eat. So no, there is no gutter oil involved or eating dead pigs out of the river. Also, I'm not in a city as most expats are. I live in an area that isn't so polluted. NYC or Seattle has pollution problems too, you live in a city with a bunch of people, what do you expect? Lastly, there is a huge rise on people leaving the states and renouncing their citizenship. I seriously doubt they will arrest me for no good reason, I'm not causing any problems.
dongbeiren:
This post reeks of paranoia and a warped view of reality. Have you been reading INFO WARS and listening to that nutjob Alex Jones too much? Man, please don't compare food safety issues in China and America and claim that China comes out on top..... not even worth arguing that one.
Okay, there are a lot of religious nuts in America but at least they have the freedom to express themselves. What happens to the religious nuts in China? Yea, no one knows because they disappear.
You're more respected here than back home? Yea, people yelling halloooo at you and girls calling you handsome for not being Chinese doesn't count.
Deceived by your government? All hail the transparency of Chinese government! An honest and straightforward bunch of lads indeed! Yea, okay I'll give you that the American government is pretty scummy too but......
All in all some of your points are not totally wrong but it really seems that you're a disillusioned American who doesn't know China well enough to see how truly messed up this society is. As a fellow American, I've been there. I liked a lot of things about Chinese society until I got to know the place. Now I'm still here because of my personal connection to this place but boy oh boy the U.S.A. is an objectively better place than China any day of the week. And I CAN NEVER say that to Chinese people because you DO have to be paranoid about saying or doing the wrong thing here or you will be isolated and attacked (possibly physically). It's happened to people I know. So I try to keep my distance from locals and give passive and non-threatening answers to their irritating personal questions.
So you come across a naive newbie good sir.
dongbeiren:
And the reason most Americans renounce their citizenship is to avoid taxes. So unless you're a millionaire you would be insane to give up US citizenship. Want Chinese citizenship? Good luck with that. They don't want you.
DrMonkey:
For the tainted food : it mostly come from rural, remote places. It's a mix of issues with polluted soil and waters (potassium & rice), farmers not using fertilizer wisely or taking some shortcuts (using waste water from a paper factory for example), ignorance of good practices and laws, and more rarely criminal making a quick buck. Unless you live in a lost valley in Sichuan or a dune in Ganxu and run your own farm, you are not going to avoid the problem. I don't mean to make fun of you, I just thing you are a tad misinformed and point you something. If you solve that food issue by living a simple life in a farm, you will bump into issues like hospital, kids education and their subsequent future prospective. If you have spent time in the countryside, you have seen that. The rant about USA, ok... If you are fine with blunt censorship and lack of civil rights in China, why not. But the world is not just China and USA. In Europe, religion and politics are well separated too, and you don't a policeman on your back for minor of fences, etc.
Englteachted:
Please do renounce your citizenship. Please let us know how that works out for you and I hope you informed the wife. Also renounce your citizenship before having kids so you can't reclaim citizenship through your child.
That will be a decision you will remember for the rest of your life.
Englteachted:
Oh and you're white (judging from the photo) why would you be afraid of being shot by a police officer?
http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/agri_biotechnology/gmo_planting/142.count...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/30/us-china-gmo-idUSKCN0HP13X2014...
I think you might be wrong about the GMO thing...
As for the rest, well I'm not going to try to convince you either way. If you think China is a better place to live then that's your business.
A piece of friendly advice though.. DON'T renounce your citizenship just yet. If China doesn't work out for you there are plenty of other countries that would have everything you're looking for and that, as a U.S passport holder you would be able to at least visit and maybe immigrate to. As a Chinese passport holder ( could you even get a Chinese passport?) your options are very limited.
HA, China has about 1/5 -1/6 the world's population and less than 1/10 the world's wealth. 2/3 of the world's wealth is in the UK and US. Can you do the math?
China has 1 aircraft carrier and does not have military power that can be projected in other regions. Even stripped down militaries like France and England can operate globally.
If you want to voice your support for China, I have no problems with that but you don't need to out right lie.Richer and more powerful? Not even fucking close 33% to 8% (of the world's wealth)
This guy is a gold mine.
"There isn't stupid laws here that can land you in jail or force you to take a plea bargain and then you'll lose your job and home."
Really! Do you know why Chinese are afraid to help? Do you know why Chinese are afraid to call the police? Because they might get blamed.
Are you seriously trying to say China is a 'rule of law country'?
Going to jail for being poisoned!
Going to jail for reporting a home invasion where you had to defend your wife against attackers (the Aussie guy)!
Being arrested for spying because your business was too successful.
I thought this deluded piece was quite funny.....
"3. I'm still looking for it, but I have always liked the traditional culture of China. You know, the one where a small community lives and works together. Everyone has everything they need and people help each other. Their morals and values are created from actual life experiences rather than a book that's mass produced and has the worst morals and values in the history of man kind."
has as the above ever existed in China? In the past the small communities (& big cities) didn't have everything they needed. The people who lived on the land were basically serfs who worked for the big landlord. Their morals were handed down from Confucious who told them that the emperor was the be all & end all!
Don't get me wrong....I love living in China & will retire here but there are so many parts of what you've written that show you've got wool over your eyes.
I'll answer for myself now....I first came here for the same reason as ScotsAlan.....factory got moved to China to make more money for bankers...my choice was to stay in a small idyllic seaside village on the Isle of Man drowning my unemployed sorrows or come here. I immediately loved the contrast between a clean village of 3500 people & the mega city of Guangzhou! Been here 5 years now, got married, settled down & live my new home, even with the cons of living in a developing country with all the local habits.
